Urgent Care :: help, turtle has not eaten for a week

[sacrilegious]

ok sorry to double post, but i ended up takin it to the vet today. right at the appointment i got into an emotional and sort of heated debate and argument of everything i said yesterday, almost to the point i ticked the vet off and that she thought i should have gone somewhere else.. but then realized it was pointless since i was there already and would have to pay regardless

but this appointment was more useful than my first one, in which i found i was more informed, and as much as i hate to admit.. "educated" on this stuff, like don't just trust the internet community and my herp friend, as these are professional licensed people who deal with this stuff (though i still hate the high costs of these services). but not a knock against you people, because everything i've read is what i see on websites and other forums, and thats how i usually rate internet sources with the consistency of info should usually hold true. anyway after the check up and all, i was advised the turtle was more sick of lack of calcium, vit A and D from her observations, which most should not be entirely of my fault, but rather the way they were before i purchased them 2 months ago, but now i should change the diet more and find stuff high in calcium and protein (ie: fish, cuttle bone, worms?).

she gave it 2 injections of vit A and D on each arm, and force open the mouth with that finger between the neck technique and tapping its beak with a check up stick, and dispensed small amount of this antibiotic called Novo-trimel. and showed me how to do it, and to now administer this stuff orally, along with vit A, and eventually cod liver oil. other than that not sure what else to do other than put it back in my tank and do the same thing and hope the appetite will just come back and it will eat again

so yea, all and all, i apologized and was more thankful afterwards. the cost still for all that was $159, but i overlooked it at that point and just said whatever. i should say i was wrong to rip vets for their charges, all of this mostly stemmed from my anger to the previous retailers for not taking care of them, and the people who usually smuggle them and leave them in atrocious environments, and the uselessness of my first visit to the vet, along with those fees. but sadly this world is a messed up place, as most clinics and hospitals charge ridiculous amounts for what they call "med visit/consultation" for us as well, as ive seen enough foreign medical bills from where i work at a travel claims insurance company. anyways again thank you all for givin the advice, reading all this in the thread, and even knockin some sense into me, as ive had a crazy last week with all this. hoepfully the turtle will have a slow recovery, and no more sicknessess will arise

[Safdar]

Good luck with the turtle and
Keep us posted

[steve]

The information you find online is never a substitute for professional care. However, not all herp vets are equal in their skill when dealing with turtles. For instance I would be wary of vitamin A injections because I think it's over done.

Anyway, I hope you've separated them and I wish you the best of luck. I've had to deal with a sick hatchling and I made my share of regrettable mistakes but thats when you sometimes learn the most.

Remember, if you are not comfortable with the vet, seek out a new one. Took me 4 tries before I found one I liked.

[SpotsMama]

I hope it turns out well for your turtle. You are certainly putting forth the effort to ensure he gets the best possible care. On vets, it took me three tries to find a vet that knew what to do with my turtle.

[sillyleisl]

Honestly, sacrilegious, if it's not about the money, then take the turtle to the vet THEN complain about the principles. It is not right to have the turtle suffer for your principles. Each day you waste, your turtle gets weaker and weaker. Please take him to the vet. Take him to another one if it's about principles. If someone told me that my turtle would die if I didn't give someone $60, you can bet that person would have $60 in their hands! Would you like that in twenties, singles or all change? My vet didn't run any tests for RI, just the vet visit and medication. It was $90. At this point, i think you're just making excuses for not taking him to the vet. What's done is done, but that turtle needs meds!

P.S. For the record, I knew more about turtles from this website than my vet did and i felt overcharged, but I they knew enough to get me the medication I needed. I feel you pain about the money, but you can save that turtle's life!

[powerofvoodoo]

sillyleisl--I think you completely missed the part where he DID take the turtle to the vet and the turtle is currently being treated for a vit A, vit D, and calcium deficiency.
What's done is done and the turtle does have meds so all is well. =)

[SpotsMama]

Hmmm...he did take his turtle to a vet today and got treatment for him.

[sacrilegious]

The information you find online is never a substitute for professional care. However, not all herp vets are equal in their skill when dealing with turtles. For instance I would be wary of vitamin A injections because I think it's over done.

Anyway, I hope you've separated them and I wish you the best of luck. I've had to deal with a sick hatchling and I made my share of regrettable mistakes but thats when you sometimes learn the most.

Remember, if you are not comfortable with the vet, seek out a new one. Took me 4 tries before I found one I liked.

i am weary about it too but i will take their advice at this point than nothing i guess. just a question, when you separate turtles of same size, where to put the other one? i've tried to do that before when basking or feeding, and they seem uncomfortable in a separate dish and basically try to escape. i currently have a 20 gallon aquarium, but it is being occupied by fish and a lot of poop and algae

anyway i dont think i am out of the woodwork yet. my question at this point, has been my topic... and from anyone who's experienced this before, how long can a turtle go without eating? i've heard weeks to months, it just seems everyday when it doesn't want to eat it worries more, but it seems no different from a week befor until now, other than the symptoms ive described, arms curling back and head semi tucked in when basking, and occasional eyes seeming irritated. will it all of a sudden gain its appetite back and swim to me once again waiting for me to drop food?

oh and if anyone can also answer me this, i've done search on this site on how you guys orally feed meds. while ive heard a lot of injecting it into crickets or worms, thats not an option for me now since it isn't even eating food now. so... basically i've been instructed to give like 0.01 ml of novo-trimel antibiotic every 24 hours orally. the vet lady showed me i have to grasp it by the neck, and tap its beak and hopefully opens its mouth. i tried it today, took a while and had its mouth semi opened, and i dunno if i got a drop in its mouth or not. but me being sensitive to its condition, i dont wanna make it more uncomfortable having to hold it like that while putting pressure on its neck, and if i can't get its mouth open for a while, then i rather just give up. so can anyone suggest (without injecting) easiest or correct method to induce its mouth to open so i can orally administer the antibiotic, and vit A eventually?

[marisa]

You need to get another container. For a temporary fix, you could get a Rubbermaid or Sterlite storage container (50-gal) and keep a turtle in that.

If that's the way the vet showed you how to do it and it works, then that's the way I'd administer them. If you can get your turtle mad, a turtle will often open his mouth wide and you could slip some of the meds in then.

They can go a while without eating, a turtle with greater food stores can go longer than one lacking them. Without eating, though, he will eventually weaken, so you do want him to eat. Some meds can surpress the appetite while a turtle is on them. I don't know about the one your turtle is on, it would be good to check with the vet to find out if this is a side effect of the drug.

I have to ask---does your turtle have swollen eyes? If not, what makes the vet think he's got a Vit A deficiency? I'd hesitate to keep on injecting Vit A---it can be toxic if overdone. I brought one of my turtles to the vets earlier this year and refused a shot of Vit A for him because his eyes were fine and he was eating foods with beta carotene in them. I'm not saying you shouldn't give a little extra Vit A, just to be careful. You could put a little cod liver oil on his pellets or other food to supplement the Vit A (just a little and not every time you feed him).

[sacrilegious]

You need to get another container. For a temporary fix, you could get a Rubbermaid or Sterlite storage container (50-gal) and keep a turtle in that.

If that's the way the vet showed you how to do it and it works, then that's the way I'd administer them. If you can get your turtle mad, a turtle will often open his mouth wide and you could slip some of the meds in then.

They can go a while without eating, a turtle with greater food stores can go longer than one lacking them. Without eating, though, he will eventually weaken, so you do want him to eat. Some meds can surpress the appetite while a turtle is on them. I don't know about the one your turtle is on, it would be good to check with the vet to find out if this is a side effect of the drug.

I have to ask---does your turtle have swollen eyes? If not, what makes the vet think he's got a Vit A deficiency? I'd hesitate to keep on injecting Vit A---it can be toxic if overdone. I brought one of my turtles to the vets earlier this year and refused a shot of Vit A for him because his eyes were fine and he was eating foods with beta carotene in them. I'm not saying you shouldn't give a little extra Vit A, just to be careful. You could put a little cod liver oil on his pellets or other food to supplement the Vit A (just a little and not every time you feed him).

yikes 50 gallons? thats extreme, not to mention i wouldnt know wher to put in in my house right now as it is a mess. ill admit i am surprised the turtle is still functioning considering no food for a week, but before all this i fed it a lot and it seemed in a good state of satiety, so i will assume it has been living on good reserves, but none the less it concerns me every day.

the eyes are semi swollen the more i look at it, a lot of times these last few days the turtle just closes its eyes when basking, has one eye open, and rubs it occasionally. that is true any vitamin overdose can be bad, the vit A drops i got wher ei have to administer orally, the instructiosn i was told to just give a drop EVERY OTHER DAY, or through food. but like i said it won't even sniff a bite of food, whereas the other turtle will literally snatch anything hanging from my finger now so... my main hope is its tract is good and wont waste away, and that it will eat anything soon enough. but yea i wont over do it wit vit A, cuz even i know every living thing has certain lethal thresholds for toxicity when administering drugs, vitamins, supplements, etc.

[untsmurf]

If you're feeding your turt to the point of satiety, then you are definitely over feeding. These turtles have an instinct to eat as much as they can fit in their little bodies because, in the wild, they don't get to eat everyday. But since you are feeding him everyday, you have to be very careful about over feeding.

[marisa]

But I understood that the turtle is not eating, and that's the concern...

I suggested a 50-gallon storage container because they would provide space and are relatively cheap. I've forgotten how big your turtles are.

[sacrilegious]

well that depends on definition of satiety, if they're always swimming to me for more, then it cannot be they're full. but nonetheless i only feed maximum twice a day. if i should cut it down like they do in the wild please advise, but otherwise since it is not the wild i usually give them as breakfast and dinner

the turtles are practically baby RES, 1-1.5 inches. even if i got the tub, most likely would need filters and more equipment, i'll try to find somethin a little lighter, mayeb maximum 10 gallons, but finding space around my place is the problem.

and yea everyday i just want it to come and take those pellets... grrr

[SpotsMama]

A number of things besides vitamin a deficiency can cause eye swelling. One is too powerful UVB of a certain type. What brand and strength of UVB bulb do you use?

Other cause of swollen eyes is water that isn't clean or too much conditioner in the water. Could these be factors?

Another cause of swollen eyes is illness - specifically a respiratory infection. RI is treated with antibiotics, so I assume the antibiotics your vet has prescribed should apply. Have you tried to get the antibiotics into the turtle the way your vet did it, but it's not working for you?

On the not eating - is there any small gravel in the tank? Or if there isn't gravel in the tank now, were they previously kept in a tank with small gravel? Sometimes turtles eat gravel and it sticks in their digestive systems and stops them up and eventually they stop eating. That's why it's strongly recommended not to put gravel in a turtle tank.

I know you've tried a variety of ways to get your turtle to eat but at the risk of being repetitious let me ask have you tried shrimp and tuna? Some turtles love a little canned cat food (only to try to get him to eat - not appropriate as a staple of course). Also, a warm turtle is more likely to eat than a cool one. do you have your water temperature up to 82 degrees and the basking temp at around 90 degrees?

Two little turtles an inch and a half each would fit comfortably in a 30 gallon tank until they grew. The problem right now is that if one of your turtles is sick and contageous he's likely to infect the other as long as they are together. If they've been together for more than a week while the one is showing symptoms, though, it's probably a little late to try to protect the well one, but it still would be best to separate them. For sort of an infirmary could you manage a smaller separate container - maybe a 10 gallon rubber maid or a large dish pan? You'd need to be able to keep it warm and clean and keep the little turtle from escaping.

I can only imagine how frustrating it is for you. Hang in there. You are your little turtle's best chance right now. I hope it works out.

EDIT: Ok, I went back and re-read this entire thread and see that several things have already been addressed. (1) For one, there was gravel in the tank. I didn't see where there was any follow-up on the possibility the turtle is impacted. The way to determine this is through an x-ray. If the turtle is impacted then the vet can administer laxitives which may correct the problem although sometimes it doesn't and the outcome is bad. I agree that the most likely diagnosis is RI considering the symptoms but I don't think you can't completely eliminate the gravel as a possibility. (2) I also see that the temp has been raised and that you've offered your turtle shrimp. You still might try the cat food as a last resort. (3) What type and brand of UVB light do you use? If only the one turtle is showing symptoms, then the light is probably not the culprit but it bears checking. (4) Assuming he gets well, then the shell really needs attention. There's something going on with some of the marginal scutes that doesn't look good.

As always, the rule with a sick turtle is to keep him warm, very clean, keep trying to get him to eat, and avoid stress when possible. Good luck.

EDIT #2: One thing that sometimes helps turtles that won't eat is to soak them twice a day in pedialyte. That's a drink for sick babies that you can get at a drugstore.

[sacrilegious]

A number of things besides vitamin a deficiency can cause eye swelling. One is too powerful UVB of a certain type. What brand and strength of UVB bulb do you use?

Other cause of swollen eyes is water that isn't clean or too much conditioner in the water. Could these be factors?

Another cause of swollen eyes is illness - specifically a respiratory infection. RI is treated with antibiotics, so I assume the antibiotics your vet has prescribed should apply. Have you tried to get the antibiotics into the turtle the way your vet did it, but it's not working for you?

On the not eating - is there any small gravel in the tank? Or if there isn't gravel in the tank now, were they previously kept in a tank with small gravel? Sometimes turtles eat gravel and it sticks in their digestive systems and stops them up and eventually they stop eating. That's why it's strongly recommended not to put gravel in a turtle tank.

I know you've tried a variety of ways to get your turtle to eat but at the risk of being repetitious let me ask have you tried shrimp and tuna? Some turtles love a little canned cat food (only to try to get him to eat - not appropriate as a staple of course). Also, a warm turtle is more likely to eat than a cool one. do you have your water temperature up to 82 degrees and the basking temp at around 90 degrees?

Two little turtles an inch and a half each would fit comfortably in a 30 gallon tank until they grew. The problem right now is that if one of your turtles is sick and contageous he's likely to infect the other as long as they are together. If they've been together for more than a week while the one is showing symptoms, though, it's probably a little late to try to protect the well one, but it still would be best to separate them. For sort of an infirmary could you manage a smaller separate container - maybe a 10 gallon rubber maid or a large dish pan? You'd need to be able to keep it warm and clean and keep the little turtle from escaping.

I can only imagine how frustrating it is for you. Hang in there. You are your little turtle's best chance right now. I hope it works out.

EDIT: Ok, I went back and re-read this entire thread and see that several things have already been addressed. (1) For one, there was gravel in the tank. I didn't see where there was any follow-up on the possibility the turtle is impacted. The way to determine this is through an x-ray. If the turtle is impacted then the vet can administer laxitives which may correct the problem although sometimes it doesn't and the outcome is bad. I agree that the most likely diagnosis is RI considering the symptoms but I don't think you can't completely eliminate the gravel as a possibility. (2) I also see that the temp has been raised and that you've offered your turtle shrimp. You still might try the cat food as a last resort. (3) What type and brand of UVB light do you use? If only the one turtle is showing symptoms, then the light is probably not the culprit but it bears checking. (4) Assuming he gets well, then the shell really needs attention. There's something going on with some of the marginal scutes that doesn't look good.

As always, the rule with a sick turtle is to keep him warm, very clean, keep trying to get him to eat, and avoid stress when possible. Good luck.

EDIT #2: One thing that sometimes helps turtles that won't eat is to soak them twice a day in pedialyte. That's a drink for sick babies that you can get at a drugstore.

heh basicallyl most of what you said, yes i've addressed. even the gravel part, while i have no removed it, i do not think that is the reason at this point that is causing all this, because ive told the vet and they would have suggested to xray as well, and if it did swallow a gravel then a week from now im sure that it would have a much larger impact on its whole gut than if it weren't there, as in it'd die... no way it can be lodged in there that long.

i use a specialized repto glo florescent light i got from my herp distributor associate of mine, i think it's called Repti Glo 8.0 from Exo Terra. 14 W, 33% UVA, and 8% UVB. i do not think lighting is the problem either

pedialyte? i just did a google search and you're talkin about electrolytes? i havent used anything of the extreme like that, but again my herp associate of mine suggested a 10% Gaterade solution works as well. i've done that for about a week and still nothing

the shell part, i sort of screwed up when i first got it and noticed slight peel, i peeled some of it when i should have not, it hasn't healed, but i was informed that it should eventually provided it gets the calcium diets and all

so yea, still not eating, i floated 2 pellets for 30 mins in the gatorade dish, dangled it in front of nose again, still won't eat. it's as if it has forgotten how to eat or open its mouth!... *sigh