Urgent Care :: Red spots on skin- Subcutaneous bleeding? Infection?

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Post Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 1:34 am   Red spots on skin- Subcutaneous bleeding? Infection?

How big is your turtle? 13 inches (~5lbs)
How long have you had it? 25 years

What is the water temperature? 83F
Did you use a thermometer? Yes
Are you using a water heater? Yes
How much water is in there? 35 gallons
Are you using a water conditioner? Yes
Are you using any filtration? Yes (fluval 204)

What is the basking temperature? 90F
Is there a basking light?Yes
Is there a basking platform that is easy to climb on? Yes
What kind is it or what is it made out of? Wood
Is there a UVB light? Yes

What have you been trying to feed it? Now that she's older she gets more lettuce, peppers, and sweet potatoes (and various aquatic plants- elodea, water hyacinth, and chara). She still gets some pellets and some dried shrimp (solenocera melantho)
When was the last time your turtle ate? She ate today and she has maintaned her appetite (a voracious feeder)

How big is the tank/pond/enclosure? 75 gallons
Is the tank near a window? yes
Is the tank in a room with a lot of activity? yes

Have you read the Basic Care section? yes
Have you searched the forums for similar situations? yes

Is there any other unusual activity/symptoms?:

After 24 years of completely clean health, she started to develop some red spots on her skin. We had some blood work done which didn't show anything far from normal, but she was started on Baytril. After ~10 days on Baytril the spots cleared up. A month or so later the spots returned the vet recommended that we try an injectable antibiotic (). We started her on this, but she immediately puffed up (i.e. filled with fluid). We stopped the antibiotic and found it was nephrotoxic which likely caused the puffy-ness. The spots mostly went away, but now they have returned darker than ever (see pictures).

We have been to the "best" vets our area (Vancouver) has to offer with some success and some brutal incompetence. We're really hoping to get her healed up as she's still eating well and exhibiting normal behavior (she's a great turtle).

So, do we put her back on antibiotics? (Baytril)

Anyone have experience with these types of marks on RES? Any advice?

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Post Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:37 pm   Re: Red spots on skin- Subcutaneous bleeding? Infection?

From what I've seen, these spots usually clear up themselves. However, the frequency she's getting them is concerning. Are they in the same locations?
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Post Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:51 pm   Re: Red spots on skin- Subcutaneous bleeding? Infection?

She still eating though, i would of went with its septicemia seeing that red like. I just had a turtle go through and spots looked the exact same. Though yours is still acting normal. Complete opposite of what the turtle would be acting if it had it.
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Post Posted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 12:26 pm   Re: Red spots on skin- Subcutaneous bleeding? Infection?

Hi, the spots are in different places and are different sizes. She is maintaing a healthy appetite still.
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Post Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 6:37 am   Re: Red spots on skin- Subcutaneous bleeding? Infection?

Was she on oral Baytril? Is that the only antibiotic tried?
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Post Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 2:29 pm   Re: Red spots on skin- Subcutaneous bleeding? Infection?

Yes she was on oral baytril. We had some blood work done and the results came back pretty normal but with a small increase in basophils. When the spots came back we did an extensive search for good reptile vet and took her to Sharon Prus as she came highly recommended. She took a urine sample, tried and failed to get a blood sample (left Littlefoot with a huge bruise) and perscribed injectable amikacin. She called me back a few days later and said that because the urine was so dilute littlefoot was probably in kidney failure and to keep taking the anti-biotics. Amikacin is nephrotoxic as we discovered when littlefoot started to puff up. As a PhD student in zoology I had access to the liturature and when I looked up the results of a the urine test they were completely normal for a red-eared slider. Needless to say I was extremely upset at the care offered by Shannon Prus.

I just dont know what the spots are. They dont appear to be septiciemic, but they are returing regularly and my faith in vets has taken a nose dive. Littlefoot's appitite remains normal and her behaviour has not changed but the red spots have me worried as she has not had them before in 24 years in my care. I was considering giving her a saltwater bath with diluted sea water incase it was bacterial...
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Post Posted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 11:52 am   Re: Red spots on skin- Subcutaneous bleeding? Infection?

Amikacin is normally used for something like septicemia. It's considered stronger than Baytril or Fortaz. Is the urine clear/normal colored?
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Post Posted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 2:56 pm   Re: Red spots on skin- Subcutaneous bleeding? Infection?

If you do some research Amakicin must be given with heavy fluid treatments(was this done?) as it causes not only necronic damage but it is very taxing on the kidneys.
My vet wanted to give my guy it and I refused and went with the baytril orally, you might want to pick up some pedialyte and start giving him some soaks.
Check here and it gives a run down on the various medications for reptiles:
http://www.anapsid.org/resources/rxdose.html
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Post Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 2:23 am   Re: Red spots on skin- Subcutaneous bleeding? Infection?

Hi,

Yes the pee is clear/normal and there was apparently a very large amount of it when the sample was taken. Little is used to being handled and has not peed on me in a very long time. Judging by Little's shoulder I'd say the vet (Prus) really stressed her out when trying to get that blood sample.

She was not given any fluid treatments with amakicin and the was no evidence for septicimea in the blood work to warrent its use. She has now had two blood samples and neither show evidence for blood poisining.

I have been making sure she basks for at lease 2 hrs a day and getting very warm. The red spots seem to be getting better but I am concerned about them coming back.

Any idea what they could be? I went to another vet and she didnt know what they were either but has been trying to contact other vets who are reptile specialists for me.
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Post Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 4:05 am   Re: Red spots on skin- Subcutaneous bleeding? Infection?

I'd still have to think this is a bacterial infection, one that could possibly lead to septicemia. Did they tell you anything about the liver levels?
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Post Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:24 pm   Re: Red spots on skin- Subcutaneous bleeding? Infection?

Nothing in the blood work looks unusually different from normal levels aside from a very minor increase in basophils but nothing that is significantly elevated. I did not treat her with anti-biotics this time and the spots are slowly fading on their own. She is going through a skin shed right now but other than that she has continued to act like her normal food loving self. All the vets usually said is that "kidney and liver function look normal"- according to the blood work. Do you suspect a certain bacterial infection or are you speaking more generally? The two competent vets that have seen Little seem to be confident that is not bacterial, but none are "RES specialists" or have a lot of experience with chelonians in general. When they first appeared I was convinced that it was septicemia, which is why I went to the vet to get baytril in the first place, but I am not confident in that conclusion anymore. Shes very active and the spots seem to be popping up and disappearing on their own over a few days to a week or so at most. The blood samples where taken when the spots were at their worst and covered her inner thigh area. There has been no redness on her plastron at any time. I am considering getting a scrapping of one next time one pops up just to double check. Do you think I should have it tested for something specific?
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Post Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 2:33 am   Re: Red spots on skin- Subcutaneous bleeding? Infection?

IMO, no matter how competent the vet is, herpetology still has a long way to go and there are no such thing as "RES specialists". Maybe this is a precursor or early stage of septicemia and I would probably stick with Baytril. I don't think anyone on this forum could be completely certain what this is. You might want to dig around turtleforum.com to see what they think, but I've been in your situation before… trying to figure an illness out and the vets are stumped. It's a terrible feeling and hopefully it gets sorted out soon. I think it's great that she's acting normal and has her appetite, those are very positive signs.
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Post Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2022 5:23 pm   Re: Red spots on skin- Subcutaneous bleeding? Infection?

Hello,

Wondering if you ever got an answer to the red spots and if your Littlefoot got better?

Thank you!
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