General Care Discussion :: Albino RES Breeding

Taking care of your turtle's overall health.

Post Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 9:01 pm   

I understand your argument melted, just wondering, do you feel that way about morphs in other animals like snakes??
~Christi
1.0 RES: Mikey R.I.P.
1.0 Het for Albino Red Tail Boa: Kaa ~adopted out
0.0.1 Northern BTS: Petri ~now a well-loved class pet

1.0 Am. Staff Mix: Brutus R.I.P.
1.0 German Shepherd: Pax

1.0 Husband: Will
0.1 Daughter: Lily
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untsmurf
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Post Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 9:57 pm   

untsmurf wrote:I understand your argument melted, just wondering, do you feel that way about morphs in other animals like snakes??


Yes, I feel the same way about any animal. I guess I just don't understand the fascination. Especially when these "morphs" produce animals that have birth defects. To me, owning a pet should be about loving that pet for the joy that it brings to your life, not about having a pet that looks neat because it has some weird coloring.

On a similar note, but a bit different - People even inject colored dye into fish to give them different colors. I find this to be disgusting and I don't understand it. There are plenty of naturally beautiful fish, why inject them with fake colors?

I guess my main opinion is that animals are beautiful just the way they are, stop messing with genetics and let evolution take its natural course.

And also, I think people need to stop overpopulating animals like dogs, cats, certain turtles (RES!), and certain frogs, to name a few. I'm sorry, but it's SELFISH to breed turtles just cause you think it's a neat idea.
Toby - RES - adopted in December 2007 - 120g tank - Fluval FX5

Max - Pit Bull/Irish Setter/Dalmatian mix - adopted in March 2009
Lola - Pit Bull mix - adopted in June 2009
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meltedspork
 
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Post Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 10:15 pm   

I agree with breeding animals that are already overpopulated. But I don't have a good enough understanding of genetics and morphing and defects to make an argument one way or another.

Keeping that it mind, it seems to me that they breed certain already morphed animals to get more animals with that morph. Birth defects (blindness, missing limbs, etc) can occur in any birth natural or morph. Unless you are referring to the morph itself as a birth defect. In nature these animals might not survive, but lets face it, if you're breeding an animal for a high end morph, nobody is going to spend thousands of dollars for an animal just to set it loose. Therefore, the animal will live its entire life in captivity and it's 'defect' will have served its purpose: to look pretty.

I think the want for a morphed animal has a lot to do with our lifestyle. We are a world driven by appearance. Children are getting plastic surgery, you look for in your mate what you want in your children, not to mention the endless debates over genetic manipulation.

But I definitely do not believe in breeding animals that are overpopulated like RES, or turtles in general.
~Christi
1.0 RES: Mikey R.I.P.
1.0 Het for Albino Red Tail Boa: Kaa ~adopted out
0.0.1 Northern BTS: Petri ~now a well-loved class pet

1.0 Am. Staff Mix: Brutus R.I.P.
1.0 German Shepherd: Pax

1.0 Husband: Will
0.1 Daughter: Lily
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untsmurf
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Post Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 11:25 pm   

Somone correct me if I am wrong here... But I have always assumed that over breeding can actually reduce the amount of genetic diversity within a species. While I am not familiar with the genetics behind breeding turts at all, I used to propagate african violets. There was/is an explosion in the number of different hybrids, but on the whole the propagators generally breed for a limited number of traits. So the variations were only slight difference in color or bloom type, compact leaf structure, etc. Real genetic diversity was lost in the process. Many folks used to comment that the irony of propagation "programs" was that while there were far more unusual colors, etc introduced, some of the original species of violets were nearly lost. In the quest to get "different" plants - everyone ended up with the same thing genetically!
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mat012
 
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Post Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 4:15 am   

thanks for all your inputs. ill be trying to breed my albino RES and caramels.... if the albinos and caramels were overpopulated how come i cant find any for free? just a random thought....because i sure as hell wouldnt of wanted to spend over 500 per turtle.....

EDIT: I can find green RES a dime a dozen for free....... :roll:
lawsofpower48
 
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Post Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 11:28 am   

You know, if I read your last post correctly, it seems like just because albinos are jacked up in price you think you're justified in breeding them. I can't even justify that rationale.

In any case, it seems you're set on breeding these turtles. I'd definitely do my research first. I have no idea how large your turtles are, but females usually don't lay their first clutches until they're a few years old, and even then, the first clutches usually aren't as viable.
Beyond that I'd discuss it with a vet. Perhaps they'd be more familiar with the genetics of turtle coloring. To be perfectly honest, you're looking at the genetics a little to over-simplified, and I don't think you're going to get the results you want.

Good luck with your green res that you'll hatch for a dime a dozen.

I certainly hope you're as excited about them as you would be if the eggs were a color morph, because it's a good possibility that you'll get green RES.
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megcornell
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Post Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 11:59 am   

I agree with Meg. What are you going to do with the turtles if they're all regular?
~Christi
1.0 RES: Mikey R.I.P.
1.0 Het for Albino Red Tail Boa: Kaa ~adopted out
0.0.1 Northern BTS: Petri ~now a well-loved class pet

1.0 Am. Staff Mix: Brutus R.I.P.
1.0 German Shepherd: Pax

1.0 Husband: Will
0.1 Daughter: Lily
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untsmurf
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Post Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 12:07 pm   

lawsofpower48 wrote:thanks for all your inputs. ill be trying to breed my albino RES and caramels.... if the albinos and caramels were overpopulated how come i cant find any for free? just a random thought....because i sure as hell wouldnt of wanted to spend over 500 per turtle.....

EDIT: I can find green RES a dime a dozen for free....... :roll:


You really just don't seem to get it... ALL RES ARE OVERPOPULATED... it doesn't matter what color you are talking about, they are ALL THE SAME EXACT SPECIES. Geeze.
Toby - RES - adopted in December 2007 - 120g tank - Fluval FX5

Max - Pit Bull/Irish Setter/Dalmatian mix - adopted in March 2009
Lola - Pit Bull mix - adopted in June 2009
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meltedspork
 
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Post Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 12:28 pm   

So, by your rationale, if you spent 500$ on an albino RES, it is rare, but a dime on a green RES and it's overpopulated? Are your intentions on breeding your turtles for a living? I would definitely check with your state regulations on breeding, and remember that there are fewer people willing to spend 500$ on a turtle, so you might end up with more turtles than you can support. Then you would be giving them to a humane society, and they would be FREE. I would definitely think this through more.

As for genetics, as much as I hate to say it, google turtle breeders online and see if they have any insight. I really do fear that you will end up with more green RES than you will the morphs, and then you'll be no better than those breeders. So find out if they can tell you more about the genetics.

And another thing to remember, when you are selling albinos or giving them away or whatever, you need to remind people that they are getting an animal that has SPECIAL NEEDS, like a cat with diabetes. Albinos need a lot more work than a standard RES.

mat012 - I agree with you. During my genetics class in college, we had to breed generations of fruit flies with wild-type flies to find out what the mutation was. We were warned that we had to be super careful to kill off all of our flies because if they were released, they could screw with the natural fruit flies.

The only genetic variation that I'm curious about are the glow-in-the-dark fish or whatever they are. I think that's a fascinating genetic trait, though useful only as pets. But they are even now engineering lab animals with SEE-THROUGH skin ... Yuck!
JAX
- - -
Baby Boy - January 9th, 2011! (3 months old)
1 RES - 7" long - Umi (3.5 years old)
1 black lab/hound mix - Josie (1.5 year old)
2 cats - Mysti and Molly (6.5 years old)
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TheComputerGremlin
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Post Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 12:43 pm   

Now I am not disagreeing with anyone here, but the definition of overpopulation is-

"Overpopulation refers to a condition where an organism's numbers exceed the carrying capacity of its habitat."

Now if he decides to breed, and care for his turtles, and never release them, that does not hurt any habitat.
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Linus
 
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Post Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 3:17 pm   

sfmmfreak wrote:Now I am not disagreeing with anyone here, but the definition of overpopulation is-

"Overpopulation refers to a condition where an organism's numbers exceed the carrying capacity of its habitat."

Now if he decides to breed, and care for his turtles, and never release them, that does not hurt any habitat.


thanks for not jumping to conclusions. as i did mention previously i was going to try to breed a batch for family regardless of albino or not i had homes for the turtles. :wink:

and to my opinion, of course a RES is a RES.....regardless of what color morphs.... but its OBVIOUS that the color morphs are in demand and hardly EVER abandoned..... thats why florida laws banned the sales of regular RES and not color morphs......theres a reason to WHY theyre more expensive as well..... supply and demand...... its just like a car, you have different colors and everyone has their own opinions to what color you want your car to be, but the case is that every car youre purchasing contributes to global warming.......im here to ask questions because im fascinated with my EXPENSIVE albinos.....so im not sure if people are mad because they cant afford one or they truly care.... also, if i was to GIVE someone a caramel albino slider for free, im sure there wouldnt be negativity towards my breeding questions.......just my 2 cents.....

from the start i was just here for education purposes. it seems like everyone on this forum is controversial about this topic.....
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Post Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 3:31 pm   

Sheesh you guys take things to seriously. As he said he already has homes for what he breeds. In my opinion thats fine it's not like he's breeding his turtles just to do it or to cause more problems with the numbers of Turts out there.

Also it is very true if someone gets a color morph animal they are less likely to release it because of the higher cost. It is the way the human mind works.
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Post Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 3:47 pm   

Selera wrote:Sheesh you guys take things to seriously. As he said he already has homes for what he breeds. In my opinion thats fine it's not like he's breeding his turtles just to do it or to cause more problems with the numbers of Turts out there.

Also it is very true if someone gets a color morph animal they are less likely to release it because of the higher cost. It is the way the human mind works.


thanks for understanding what im trying to say. i have homes for the turtles regardless, thats why im trying to breed a batch to see if i get lucky, if not, they hey, i have homes for them from other family members. my point was to see if anyone knew if i can get the albino results.... but ive already asked breeders while asking on these forums... 2 albinos does very well make albinos..... and caramel mixed with regular albino would make regular RES...but is possible after the 2nd generation they will become SNOW RES...which is rare as well
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Post Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 7:07 pm   

lawsofpower48 - We aren't upset because we can't afford them (most of the people on this board have spent well over 500$ on their turtle setups). We simply worry about the overpopulation. Even if you have friends and family that want the babies, it doesn't mean that they will be responsible. They may release them, after all, you cannot guard them every moment. And remember that a male and female kept together can lay many, many eggs over the course of one season. Not all will be viable, but it can result in a number of turtles very quickly.

If someone on this board wanted to spend money on a rare turtle, that is their prerogative, however, don't think that just because you spent a lot of money on your turtle that you are better than everyone else.

I don't want to discourage you posting here, I'm sure that everyone on this board would be fascinating to hear about your breeding stories and see babies. So please, stick around, educate yourself, and educate others as well! Just remember that no matter what you paid for your turtle, everyone here loves their turtles just like you.

Good luck on your breeding, I'm eager to hear what comes out of the first generation!
JAX
- - -
Baby Boy - January 9th, 2011! (3 months old)
1 RES - 7" long - Umi (3.5 years old)
1 black lab/hound mix - Josie (1.5 year old)
2 cats - Mysti and Molly (6.5 years old)
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TheComputerGremlin
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Post Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 8:38 pm   

lawsofpower48 wrote:
sfmmfreak wrote:Now I am not disagreeing with anyone here, but the definition of overpopulation is-

"Overpopulation refers to a condition where an organism's numbers exceed the carrying capacity of its habitat."

Now if he decides to breed, and care for his turtles, and never release them, that does not hurt any habitat.


thanks for not jumping to conclusions. as i did mention previously i was going to try to breed a batch for family regardless of albino or not i had homes for the turtles. :wink:

and to my opinion, of course a RES is a RES.....regardless of what color morphs.... but its OBVIOUS that the color morphs are in demand and hardly EVER abandoned..... thats why florida laws banned the sales of regular RES and not color morphs......theres a reason to WHY theyre more expensive as well..... supply and demand...... its just like a car, you have different colors and everyone has their own opinions to what color you want your car to be, but the case is that every car youre purchasing contributes to global warming.......im here to ask questions because im fascinated with my EXPENSIVE albinos.....so im not sure if people are mad because they cant afford one or they truly care.... also, if i was to GIVE someone a caramel albino slider for free, im sure there wouldnt be negativity towards my breeding questions.......just my 2 cents.....

from the start i was just here for education purposes. it seems like everyone on this forum is controversial about this topic.....


You make it seem like we are all just jealous cause you have SOOOOOO much money you can buy albino RES. I have news for you - this forum isn't full of superficial people; it's full of turtle lovers. Many people on this forum adopted their turtles or bought them for very cheap. That doesn't make our turtles any different from yours. We all love our turtles. And many people on here have easily spent over $1000 on set-ups for our turtles.

Also - if your whole reason for breeding these turtles is just to give pets to family members, why don't your family members get some of the free green RES that you mentioned?

Turtles are overpopulated and breeding them does contribute to overpopulation, even if you don't release them into the wild. If you want more turtles, why don't you adopt some that don't have a loving home?
Toby - RES - adopted in December 2007 - 120g tank - Fluval FX5

Max - Pit Bull/Irish Setter/Dalmatian mix - adopted in March 2009
Lola - Pit Bull mix - adopted in June 2009
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