Habitat - Indoor :: How important is the PH level??

[grooves12]

My tap water has a very high ph level 8.8+ since that is as high as the test goes... I used some PH down chemical in my 10gal tank, which says you are to use 5ml for every 10gal, and basically ended up having to use about 3/4 of the 118ml bottle (I dropped it and spilled a bunch) to even get it to 8.0.

[megcornell]

The water pH doesn't have to be exactly 7, but it is important to keep it constant and to keep it relatively close to neutral.
Since 8.8+ is so basic, I'd be curious as to what your ammonia levels are. pH is just one test of water quality, so to get the full picture as to what's going on in the tank you'll need to do some other tests as well.
That being said, how large is your turtle? I'm guessing he's probably too large for your tank which is causing the ammonia levels to spike.

[mat012]

Make any changes to the Ph gradually. It is really better to have a constant but higher Ph than to have a Ph level that varies fast and frequently. The turtles and fish do not have time to adjust to the changes and can be stressed.

We have tap water that sounds similar to yours. I would not fool with the ph down products. You do have to use so much for such a small change. Mix you water with half reverse osmosis or spring water from the grocery store. Over time this will be more effective at keeping those levels consistent. I usually top off with RO water (we have Culligan so its easy). But you can always just have a few gallon jugs around for top offs.

The other thing you can do is put some peat moss either in the tank as substrate or in the filter. If you are concerned that the turt will eat it then put it in a container with plenty of holes so that the water can flow in and out.

If you get a 5 in one test you might also want to look at the hardness of the water as well. If you have hard to very hard water then it will be very difficult to maintain a lower Ph.

My ph is always around 8.5 or higher without the RO. RO is the only thing that I have used that even budges it (the chems did nothing substantial). I can easily keep it at around 8 with the RO. The turtle is fine.

Meg made a good suggestion about the ammonia and nitrites/nitrates tests. They are more important to keep a watch on really. They will tell you when the water quality is poor and you need to do a water change.

I have used both the Mardel and the AP test strips. I actually recommend the Mardel. They are easier to read I think. I also like the ammonia test kit from AP. It is easy to use and since the test strips only give you the nitrite and nitrate readings, it is important as well.

[grooves12]

Ok, thanks for the suggestions...

The turtle is tiny (1.5")... if you read my thread in urgent care, you will see he is a sick little guy I am trying to nurse back to health. I have an AP master test kit and ammonia levels and everything else are being kept in check with an oversized filter and feeding him (or attempting to) outside of the tank.

[grooves12]

ok, an update...

I decided to check the water sraight out of the tap and interestingly it comes in at 7.8 for the ph level.

I checked the ph level in the aquarium and it is back beyond 8.8... so it must be something in the aquarium/filter media that is raising the ph level. Ammonia levels are at zero as are the nitrite levels, and the nitrate is barely registering at just about zero.

I am using a tetra filter: http://www.tetra-fish.com/sites/tetrafi ... 76&cid=577

The only other things I have in the tank are river rock, a small zoo med turtle dock, water heater, and a small live plant.

The only additives I have put in the water are a dechlorinator and "Stress Zyme" to promote the biological filter.

Any ideas on how I could go about track down what is going on??

[mat012]

I can only offer two ideas - I hope someone else replies because I am interested in what might be going on and would love to hear from someone with more experience - but here's my 2 cents.

Maybe it is the rock (could it be limestone or have a high calcium content?). Secondly you could check your plant. If there is a good deal of decaying matter (dead roots) it might effect the Ph (?). Again just guesses really.

I would still do a partial water change a couple of times over the next week. This should bring it down closer to the tap levels. Also clean up the plant. Trim off any decaying roots and leaves.

Maybe this would help. If it doesnt or if it does only temporarily, then take the rock out.

[Chrisbarnett]

I would guess a few of your river rocks are causing the high Ph.

Check out this link, and see if some of your rocks could contain these materials.
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/rock_metals.php

[Fuzzy Hamster]

Good info Chris!

I'd read about using vinegar to test rocks, but hadn't heard about Muriatic acid from pool stores before.

Thanks!

[grooves12]

Well, I didn't test the rocks... but suspected that to be the cause. I removed them all, did a water change... checked the next day... and again PH readings had increased over 1 point from previous day.

(All that was in the tank was turtle dock, plant, and a pice of artificial rock/cave.)

So, now I am trying to check what the water does with NOTHING in the tank... just cycling it through the filter to see how it reacts. Hopefully I can get this figured out.

[Fuzzy Hamster]

It could be something in the filter media but that seems pretty unlikely.

Although I may be way off here, an obvious possibility that we may be overlooking is that it may have something to do with your ph test kit or testing procedure.

Are you testing the tap water exactly the same way as your tank water?

Do you know someone that could lend you a different test kit for comparison?

Do you by any chance live near a pet store (I know that Aquarium Services will test water) that could test your water (tap & tank) for you?

Keep us updated on how things go. I'm very curious to see what ends up being the cause.

Oh, one last thought....Does your tap water pass through a water softener in your house, or on the way to your house (as far as you know)?

[mat012]

I think your plan to remove everything is a good one. Change the water until you have a lower ph. Take everything out and then test again in a day or so. After a couple of days maybe add things back to the tank. Then you might be able to isolate what is causing the rise.

I wouldnt be surprised if it is the cave decoration. It may be made with materials that could be leaching into the water. But who knows. Actually you could test you tank decs in a bowl or something. Just place them in the water overnight or so and see if the ph has changed.

I am sure you are not as excited as I am by this, but what a mystery. Really interesting! Do keep posting...

Would the turtle waste raise the ph? Could it be the food?

Also Fuzzy - would a high ph effect the bacterial filtration? With her power filter it is not a huge issue, but would a high ph really impact the health of the turtle or the aquarium?

[grooves12]

Ok, so latest update...

Last night, I removed EVERYTHING from the tank, did a water change, added chemicals (Reptisafe and Stress Zyme) in their proper amounts. I checked the pH after about an hour of cycling the tank, and it came back between 7.8-8.0.

Tested this afternoon and guess what... 8.8+ pH again.

This makes no sense to me.

[untsmurf]

this may be a dumb question, but are you doing the test properly?

[Fuzzy Hamster]

grooves12, check my questions above (my last post) along the lines of what untsmurf just mentioned. If you can eliminate testing issues, that only leaves the added chemicals.

mat012, the short answer is no, it shouldn't. High pH can impact beneficial bacteria by essentially causing them to be stressed, but that is typically only a short term impact. Like the turtle, they should be able to adapt over time and as long as the water quality stays consistent (pH stays the same, regardless of whether its acidic or alkaline), then there should not be any long term impact. The problem here is that the pH is changing, seemingly without cause, although you now have to wonder about the added chemicals as well as the testing.

For what it is worth, it may be a good time to note that there seems to be a common notion that lower pH (slightly acidic) is better for turtles. From my limited research it would seem that slightly acidic water can apparently limit the growth of harmful becteria in the water which could ultimately impact the turtle, but otherwise, turtles can tolerate a wide range of water hardness and pH. Again, the key is consistency.

In any case, since we all have the turtles best interests at heart, it makes for an interesting mystery.

[mat012]

Thanks Fuzzy! You make a good point that I hadnt thought of - that is the sudden change in the ph is the real issue. As always great info!

Grooves, just take two gallons of water and treat them one with each chemical (Reptisafe and stress zyme). This should allow you to see if it is one of the chemicals and then isolate the one causing the problem. Of course if that doesnt identify the culprit then what is left... the filter media or the tank??? Is the tank acrylic?

Is the turtle in the tank while you are changing water and testing?