Other Turtle Discussion :: fluttering - i must clear up some things

Non-care related topics here.

Post Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:11 pm   fluttering - i must clear up some things

I know we all live with turtles and we have seen what we have seen.

I have spent much time observing my turtles, and I can say with a lot of confidence that turtles are very complicated socially and there is a lot we still don't know.

However, whenever my turtles have fluttered at each other, it has always been over objects in the tank, whether it be rocks or plants or whatever. Sometimes, when they were much smaller, it was over space in general.

Typically, what I have observed is when Typhoon touches the big pink rock, Hurricane will swim over and start to flutter. Typhoon will either flutter back or give up and go away. Hurricane sits on the rock for a while, relaxes, and then goes about his/her business. They have never bitten each other after fluttering, nor have they bitten each other ever, period.

There are certain things in the tank that neither of them flutter over, and both use regularly with no problems.

Furthermore, because they are still hatchlings, occasionally when they flutter at each other, Hurricane will "sit" on Typhoon's back to show dominance. Hurricane is definitely the one in charge, and even though Typhoon doesn't challenge that or even care, like all animals Hurricane needs to make the point from time to time. This is a natural social behavior, and not to be confused for aggression.

We should be worried about aggression (attempting to harm each other) when we put two turtles in a tank that is too small and they have no privacy. Mine willingly spend a lot of time near each other, but they have the option to hide at opposite ends of the tank when they need to be alone.

I bring this up because it bothers me when new owners come in here, ask about fluttering, and ten people tell them to separate their turtles. Rather, we should be informing people about normal social behaviors, and how it differs from actual aggression.
Spike - Egyptian mau mix, 8 years old
Phryne - Japanese bobtail, 9 months old
Hurricane - RES, 8 yo, 6 1/2 in. long
Typhoon - RES/Map hybrid, 8 yo, 7 in. long
Sadie - RES, 20 yo, 10 in. long
Sophie - Colombian red tail boa, 5 yo, 5 ft. long
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theartbook35
 
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Post Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 6:16 pm   

Common people.....
Nobody wants to reply about fluttering being "social behavior"?
I hope it never happens, but once your turtles start missing skin from the top of their necks, i want to read what you're gonna write about that.
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jozzep
 
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Post Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:03 pm   

i dont want to say this to be rude, but i can only take you for fact when you cite me your study.
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Meg and Wall-e
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roseK
 
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Post Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 3:07 pm   

jozzep wrote:Common people.....
Nobody wants to reply about fluttering being "social behavior"?
I hope it never happens, but once your turtles start missing skin from the top of their necks, i want to read what you're gonna write about that.


If my turtles were going to harm each other, they would have done so a long time ago. Especially since I have read plenty of stories on this forum about people with turtles the same size as mine, having huge fights. Yet, mine don't fight. Hm, I wonder why that is!
Spike - Egyptian mau mix, 8 years old
Phryne - Japanese bobtail, 9 months old
Hurricane - RES, 8 yo, 6 1/2 in. long
Typhoon - RES/Map hybrid, 8 yo, 7 in. long
Sadie - RES, 20 yo, 10 in. long
Sophie - Colombian red tail boa, 5 yo, 5 ft. long
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theartbook35
 
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Post Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:58 pm   

theartbook35 wrote:
jozzep wrote:Common people.....
Nobody wants to reply about fluttering being "social behavior"?
I hope it never happens, but once your turtles start missing skin from the top of their necks, i want to read what you're gonna write about that.


If my turtles were going to harm each other, they would have done so a long time ago. Especially since I have read plenty of stories on this forum about people with turtles the same size as mine, having huge fights. Yet, mine don't fight. Hm, I wonder why that is!


I had to re-home ALL 4 of my RES a few months ago. They were my first turtles and i had had them for 4 years. 3 months ago i notices wounds on the top of the necks of 2 of them.The 3 females were close to 9" each and they never hurt each other before, but they fluttered since hatchlings.Now they're in my friends pond where they belong at that size and if they keep fighting, nature will take it's course.
I wouldn't say to separate them as soon as they flutter, but turn the alarm on once they do.
Telling people they're wrong just because you came to your own conclusions without having a long time experience to base your theory on, seems a bit naive to me.
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jozzep
 
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Post Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 11:59 am   

I do tend to agree with the overall board, theartbook. You seem to be one of the only ones who has (so far) had two turtles gently fluttering who haven't taken one another out. However, you do still have essentially babies. That's why the best warning is, once fluttering starts, it may never stop and may result in the severe injury or death of one of the turtles. If ten people respond to a post, and 9 say separate them and 1 says, eh, they'll be okay, who do you think the poster is going to listen to? Most of the time, the 1 person who makes their life easier. Then let's say their turtles attack each other and one dies. They are going to come back to this board and say, well, so-and-so said it would be fine. Do you want to be so-and-so? And live with knowing that their turtle died? That's why I err on the side of caution and say, separate.
JAX
- - -
Baby Boy - January 9th, 2011! (3 months old)
1 RES - 7" long - Umi (3.5 years old)
1 black lab/hound mix - Josie (1.5 year old)
2 cats - Mysti and Molly (6.5 years old)
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Post Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 8:25 pm   

I would just watch for the biting. Fluttering means nothing until they take action. The fluttering is an early warning.

All 4 of my res flutter. One actually bites(claws) and its becasue of mating. Im trying to rehome my sliders now because of him. So far the other sliders flutter but take no action.

@TheComputerGremlin i would say the death from turtles attacking each other is on the extreme side and doesnt happen ever. They just get good bite marks. Only time another turtle kills another one is when you put a baby and an adult together.

This whole thing is why im gonna be glad to get rid of my sliders.
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Diamondbacks4Life
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Post Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:38 am   

Kevin (Tenodera) would disagree that death doesn't happen ever. He left two of his turtles alone, unsupervised, for just a few minutes and the one turtle was killed.

http://www.redearslider.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15661

Granted, Tobi was much smaller than Tiny, but it still happens. Sliders are a pain in the butt, though. I could have gotten several of another type of turtle to share a tank, but instead, I'm stuck with my RES for life in her giant tank. Not that I don't like her, but it'd be nice to see interactions.

And slightly on topic still, because sliders are such a pain, we have tons of them waiting to be adopted because you can't really throw them into a community tank easily and hope they'll live out their days.
JAX
- - -
Baby Boy - January 9th, 2011! (3 months old)
1 RES - 7" long - Umi (3.5 years old)
1 black lab/hound mix - Josie (1.5 year old)
2 cats - Mysti and Molly (6.5 years old)
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Post Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:36 am   

TheComputerGremlin wrote:Kevin (Tenodera) would disagree that death doesn't happen ever. He left two of his turtles alone, unsupervised, for just a few minutes and the one turtle was killed.


Exactly death wouldnt have happen if they were same size. Most likely that was just thinking other turtle was food.
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Post Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:21 pm   

Painteds4life wrote:I would just watch for the biting. Fluttering means nothing until they take action. The fluttering is an early warning.

All 4 of my res flutter. One actually bites(claws) and its becasue of mating. Im trying to rehome my sliders now because of him. So far the other sliders flutter but take no action.

@TheComputerGremlin i would say the death from turtles attacking each other is on the extreme side and doesnt happen ever. They just get good bite marks. Only time another turtle kills another one is when you put a baby and an adult together.

This whole thing is why im gonna be glad to get rid of my sliders.


What you say is very sensible. Thank you.
Spike - Egyptian mau mix, 8 years old
Phryne - Japanese bobtail, 9 months old
Hurricane - RES, 8 yo, 6 1/2 in. long
Typhoon - RES/Map hybrid, 8 yo, 7 in. long
Sadie - RES, 20 yo, 10 in. long
Sophie - Colombian red tail boa, 5 yo, 5 ft. long
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theartbook35
 
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Post Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:33 pm   

TheComputerGremlin wrote:I do tend to agree with the overall board, theartbook. You seem to be one of the only ones who has (so far) had two turtles gently fluttering who haven't taken one another out. However, you do still have essentially babies. That's why the best warning is, once fluttering starts, it may never stop and may result in the severe injury or death of one of the turtles. If ten people respond to a post, and 9 say separate them and 1 says, eh, they'll be okay, who do you think the poster is going to listen to? Most of the time, the 1 person who makes their life easier. Then let's say their turtles attack each other and one dies. They are going to come back to this board and say, well, so-and-so said it would be fine. Do you want to be so-and-so? And live with knowing that their turtle died? That's why I err on the side of caution and say, separate.


That's not really my point though... People on this forum in my opinion are being informed wrong. I truly believe fluttering is not aggressive. We have to look at where we get our facts from. First of all, I live with my turtles, everyday, and watch for quite a while to several hours, every day. Just because 9 out of 10 people say fluttering is aggression, doesn't make it true. I have yet to see any proof of that statement, and after seeing my own turtles interact, I even moreso don't see fluttering as aggression.

Turtles in general don't always bite after fluttering. They don't bully after every time they flutter either. My estimate is that aggression (biting, bullying) is caused by a lack of privacy and lack of adequate space.

Jozzep- Weren't your 9 inch females all sharing a 100 gallon tank together? If I'm correct, they had no options of getting away from each other or having any privacy. After you eat together, sleep together, bask together, swim together, in the same house for three years you get sick of each other. Hell, I have lived with my mother for 23 years, and we have had some huge, angry fights because of it.
Spike - Egyptian mau mix, 8 years old
Phryne - Japanese bobtail, 9 months old
Hurricane - RES, 8 yo, 6 1/2 in. long
Typhoon - RES/Map hybrid, 8 yo, 7 in. long
Sadie - RES, 20 yo, 10 in. long
Sophie - Colombian red tail boa, 5 yo, 5 ft. long
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theartbook35
 
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Post Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:37 pm   

theartbook35 wrote:
Painteds4life wrote:I w

ould just watch for the biting. Fluttering means nothing until they take action. The fluttering is an early warning.

All 4 of my res flutter. One actually bites(claws) and its becasue of mating. Im trying to rehome my sliders now because of him. So far the other sliders flutter but take no action.

@TheComputerGremlin i would say the death from turtles attacking each other is on the extreme side and doesnt happen ever. They just get good bite marks. Only time another turtle kills another one is when you put a baby and an adult together.

This whole thing is why im gonna be glad to get rid of my sliders.


What you say is very sensible. Thank you.



I agree Half and Half. I see my little guys flutter once in a while and as you said in your first post, its usually over some rock that they want all to them self. But the matter is, some people have HUNDREDS of dollers invested in a Single turtle...lets say you bought a Diamondback Turtle for lets say 200$ and you had some 3$ red ear slider...you dont want to take chances of your 200$ turtle getting all sorts of ugly scars or even dieing just because your 3$ turtle wanted to have a rock all to its self.

So if you have the room to house 2 turtles in 2 different tanks, then that would prob be the best way to go, but if you cant...well then you cant...
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Post Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 5:07 pm   

honestly people on the forum reccomend not putting turtles together because there is always a risk, and not everyone can afford it if the situation happens.
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Meg and Wall-e
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roseK
 
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Post Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 5:41 pm   

SINI5T3R wrote:
theartbook35 wrote:
Painteds4life wrote:I w

ould just watch for the biting. Fluttering means nothing until they take action. The fluttering is an early warning.

All 4 of my res flutter. One actually bites(claws) and its becasue of mating. Im trying to rehome my sliders now because of him. So far the other sliders flutter but take no action.

@TheComputerGremlin i would say the death from turtles attacking each other is on the extreme side and doesnt happen ever. They just get good bite marks. Only time another turtle kills another one is when you put a baby and an adult together.

This whole thing is why im gonna be glad to get rid of my sliders.


What you say is very sensible. Thank you.



I agree Half and Half. I see my little guys flutter once in a while and as you said in your first post, its usually over some rock that they want all to them self. But the matter is, some people have HUNDREDS of dollers invested in a Single turtle...lets say you bought a Diamondback Turtle for lets say 200$ and you had some 3$ red ear slider...you dont want to take chances of your 200$ turtle getting all sorts of ugly scars or even dieing just because your 3$ turtle wanted to have a rock all to its self.

So if you have the room to house 2 turtles in 2 different tanks, then that would prob be the best way to go, but if you cant...well then you cant...


I get your point, I really do. But, a RES isn't going to flutter at or even bite a diamondback terrapin simply because turtles of different genuses don't fight. This is a proven fact, ask Painteds4Life.

Sliders will fight with other sliders, no doubt if given a reason to.
Spike - Egyptian mau mix, 8 years old
Phryne - Japanese bobtail, 9 months old
Hurricane - RES, 8 yo, 6 1/2 in. long
Typhoon - RES/Map hybrid, 8 yo, 7 in. long
Sadie - RES, 20 yo, 10 in. long
Sophie - Colombian red tail boa, 5 yo, 5 ft. long
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theartbook35
 
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Post Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 6:47 pm   

theartbook35 wrote:
SINI5T3R wrote:
theartbook35 wrote:
Painteds4life wrote:I w

ould just watch for the biting. Fluttering means nothing until they take action. The fluttering is an early warning.

All 4 of my res flutter. One actually bites(claws) and its becasue of mating. Im trying to rehome my sliders now because of him. So far the other sliders flutter but take no action.

@TheComputerGremlin i would say the death from turtles attacking each other is on the extreme side and doesnt happen ever. They just get good bite marks. Only time another turtle kills another one is when you put a baby and an adult together.

This whole thing is why im gonna be glad to get rid of my sliders.


What you say is very sensible. Thank you.



I agree Half and Half. I see my little guys flutter once in a while and as you said in your first post, its usually over some rock that they want all to them self. But the matter is, some people have HUNDREDS of dollers invested in a Single turtle...lets say you bought a Diamondback Turtle for lets say 200$ and you had some 3$ red ear slider...you dont want to take chances of your 200$ turtle getting all sorts of ugly scars or even dieing just because your 3$ turtle wanted to have a rock all to its self.

So if you have the room to house 2 turtles in 2 different tanks, then that would prob be the best way to go, but if you cant...well then you cant...


I get your point, I really do. But, a RES isn't going to flutter at or even bite a diamondback terrapin simply because turtles of different genuses don't fight. This is a proven fact, ask Painteds4Life.

Sliders will fight with other sliders, no doubt if given a reason to.


really? I find that hard to believe lol...
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