Other Turtle Discussion :: The way nature wanted it to be..

[xsavingsaturdayx]

I've always wondered if a turtle (in this case a RES) who was raised with a natural diet, meaning no pellets, vitamin supplements etc, just a large variety of aquatic plants, small crusteceans, insects. And kept in a large tub, not aquarium, with substrate and a lot of plants, and hiding places, no clear water. And whenever winter came along, it hibernated..I've always wondered if a turtle raised under these conditions would grow healthier and be less likely to get sick.

I mean, arent wild RES alot hardier than our captive ones?

It seems that our turtles grow way to fast than their wild cousins, and everyone seems to agree that slow and steady growth is the absolute best. I think a lot of it has to do with turtle pellets, although people give good advice on how much/often to feed it, turtle pellets have a lot of protein, especially reptomin, and I think that is what gets turtles obese. Most of our turtles dont hibernate either, RES by nature are supposed to hibernate, it's only natural right? What are your views on this?

I've been doing a lot of thinking, and for some reason I feel that with a bare tank, not hibernating, and relying a little too much on pellets, that I am not doing too good of a job..

[Tenodera]

You can't exactly replicate nature. True, wild turtles are more hardy because those are the lucky ones. The SURVIVORS. All the others died.

The wild is incredibly harsh and I wouldn't put any hardship on my turtle by trying to replicate it...

You'd have to get a LOT of baby turtles and put them through these conditions to get one hardy adult. Sadly, it's true

[xsavingsaturdayx]

You can't exactly replicate nature. True, wild turtles are more hardy because those are the lucky ones. The SURVIVORS. All the others died.

The wild is incredibly harsh and I wouldn't put any hardship on my turtle by trying to replicate it...

You'd have to get a LOT of baby turtles and put them through these conditions to get one hardy adult. Sadly, it's true

Yes I understand, for turtles, in the wild there is no giant who walks around them, and handles them, feeds them, i know..but isnt best to replicate nature as best as you can? By providing, alot of plants, hiding places, and natural food? That is what I am talking about/ In nature predators is what gets baby turtles, and yes there are the few who just simply dont survive, it's nature.

But would not feeding pellets, keeping the water at 75 (or a little lower, i dont think that in nature it always stays in the 78 - 80 degrees range) and hibernating them properly realy kill them or actually be better for them in the long run? And why? Is there any proof for either?

I think that predators are the main cause, i dont think anyone would put a couple of gators and birds in a turtles enclosure.

That is my question. I dont want to start some debate, just asking for opinions and such

[grey goose]

Captive turts, if kept properly, have a significantly better chance at living a full and carefree life than their counterparts in the wild. 70-90% of wild hatchlings don't make it past the first year.....

[Tenodera]

Yes I understand, for turtles, in the wild there is no giant who walks around them, and handles them, feeds them, i know..but isnt best to replicate nature as best as you can? By providing, alot of plants, hiding places, and natural food? That is what I am talking about/

ohh...
I try to make my turtle's environment the most natural it can be with lots of aquatic plants for her to hide and swim in, fish, and a stronger current since she is a RIVER cooter. I also don't turn her basking lights on everyday. Who gets sunshine every day?

Before, when I actually had a yard, I would feed her a live earthworm or a woodlouse along with her pellets

[DavidY]

I think Kevin makes a very good point. The reason the adult turtles in the wild seem so strong and healthy is because they were the ones with the genetic fortitude to withstand the harsher extremes that survival in the wild requires. All the other clutchmates who were too weak did not make it and were thus culled out by disease and/or predators.

Likewise, the process of hibernation is yet another natural mechanism for removing the sick or otherwise weakened animals from the population. Those that are strong enough to survive are the ones that get to mate the following year, adding their better suited genes to the pool for future generations of turtles in that locality. If you want a genetically model specimen then subjecting them to the physical stress of hibernation would be one of the ways to make sure your turtle meets that requirement (if it doesn't meet that requirement then it will die). But if you want your turtle to be cozy and comfortable no matter how weak or "inferior" he might be then I'd skip it.

I think replicating their natural environment as closely as possible (less the predators) is a great idea, but if you truly want to replicate their natural environment, you will need to provide them with a lot more water than even the largest stocktank could hold. A large manmade pond would be the minimum to really allow a captive bred turtle the chance to survive without artificial or human interference.

Aside from that, we are keeping our pet turtles much like we keep ourselves. Comfy and fat on processed foods, purified water, artificial lighting, and all tightly packed together in cities, buses, trains and cozy little neighborhoods.

[Tenodera]

lol David you're much better at writing your thoughts at I am. That was I was trying to say except I ended up with 3 sentences. I'm not good at communication! lol

[xsavingsaturdayx]

I think Kevin makes a very good point. The reason the adult turtles in the wild seem so strong and healthy is because they were the ones with the genetic fortitude to withstand the harsher extremes that survival in the wild requires. All the other clutchmates who were too weak did not make it and were thus culled out by disease and/or predators.

Likewise, the process of hibernation is yet another natural mechanism for removing the sick or otherwise weakened animals from the population. Those that are strong enough to survive are the ones that get to mate the following year, adding their better suited genes to the pool for future generations of turtles in that locality. If you want a genetically model specimen then subjecting them to the physical stress of hibernation would be one of the ways to make sure your turtle meets that requirement (if it doesn't meet that requirement then it will die). But if you want your turtle to be cozy and comfortable no matter how weak or "inferior" he might be then I'd skip it.

Hmm, good old natural selection, gotta love darwin huh?

So the only real reason for hibernating a captive turtle is to see if it is fit to thrive in the wild? Then there is no reason for keepers to be doing this. I have always heard of box turtles who dont hibernate living a much shorter life span than one who does..that is why I was questioning if the animal actually benefits from it, or not.

[steve]

I think this is just a case of self-doubt. I think we all go through this, especially if we feel guilty or if something happens. But you don't need anyone to reassure you. You know they have a high mortality rate in the wild and in the pet trade. Your turtles are lucky to have you, besides how many people would you trust to look after them? Would you be happier if they were raised in the wild with all those predators and stinkin' humans around?

[DavidY]

No, I wouldn't say that the only reason for allowing a turtle to hibernate is to see if it is strong enough to survive. For one thing, it's a built-in survival mechanism that allows these reptiles to survive through the winters in these northern climates. While I don't know enough about chelonian physiology but there very well could be other benefits to the hibernation process as well. For example, the carnivorous plants that are native to the temperate zone must go into dormancy during the winter. If you try to keep them indoors through the winter without a chance to go dormant, they will run out of energy and die. So the dormant period is comparable to our need to sleep. I suppose turtles may benefit also from their hibernation in other ways, but not so vitally as the Sarracenae pitcher plants or Venus Fly Traps. The fact still remains that not all turtles survive hibernation. But we do know that they survive just fine and live very long lives in captivity without hibernation.

[SpotsMama]

There's something to be said for modern civilization. Would you like to live in a cave, rely on the food you could catch or pick, drink whatever water happens to be around, not have air conditioning, never brush your teeth....you get the idea.

The life span of humans today (at least, for us lucky ones that live in developed countries) is several times greater than it was in the olden days.

I think humans today in developed countries are trying to find a balance between what nature evolved us to be and what modern society offers. Most of the modern advances are good - great even. Medicine, hygiene, diet, education, technology. However, there are some things in the negative colume - mostly indulgences like too many chemicals in our diet and environment, too many calories, too much refined sugar and flour, too little exercise.

I think you can draw a parallel with our turtles. Most of what we can offer in captivity is good even though it's artificial - an abundance of good food, uniform temperature, clean water, low stress, medicine when it's needed. Consequently, turtles in captivity live longer. Here's a quote from an authoritative source:

"With proper habitat and diet conditions, captive RES can live longer than their wild counterparts. Captive RES can live as long as 40 years and wild RES can live as long as 20 years."

I don't think trying to re-create a natural environment should necessarily be our goal with captive turtles. We might as well just leave them in the wild! Instead, we should strive to provide the best environment - sometimes that means natural things like anacharis, and sometimes it means artificial things like constant temperature. Similar to what we people do for ourselves.

What I'm asking myself these days is - I wonder if Spot prefers to be in his outside pond or his inside aquarium? The outside pond is bigger but the inside aquarium is cooler. The outside pond is sunny but the inside aquarium has clearer water. Outside he sees birds and bugs and trees but inside he sees us! I don't think it's necessarily a given that he prefers his outside pond but I don't know how to tell which one he likes best.

[DavidY]

Those are good points, SpotsMama. Hmm, interesting thought about which place Spot likes best. Maybe the pond is his summer vacation like a cabin on a lake out in the country (no a/c, more dirty, but fresh air, great views and close to nature). It's a nice change in scenery but after a few weeks or months, you're ready to go back home to the more modern comforts.

[marisa]

Hibernation is extremely stressful and is the turtle's bodily response to extremely harsh conditions. For some species, however, it is also thought to aid in their longevity.