General Care Discussion :: New owner with a weird turtle

[taanddean]

I am very new at res's. My son was given a quarter-sized hatchling in May, and we've learned as much as we could. Yertle is now a part of the househerd that we live with, and seemed happy until about a month ago, when he began to refuse his hatchling pellets. "Okay, so he's 4" long, maybe he just doesn't need or want them anymore." Then he quite eating his other food. Now, he'll eat the pressed worm cubes we got him sometimes, and the only thing he'll eat eagerly is---flies? So we spend an hour or 2 a day hunting the neighborhood for flies to bring back. Now-for the weird part. He spends ALL his time swimming like a madman, clawing like crazy, seemingly OBSESSED with getting to "the turtle in the window". His glass 10 gallon tank is reflective, and he is just NUTS trying to get to that other turtle!!

Is he bored? Lonesome? Wanting to breed? Chasing it off? I asked the local petshop--they're clueless. The State Aquarium reptologist that I e-mailed suggested your group, since she'd never heard of such odd behavior.

His water is 80 degrees, tho the room is about 60, and the aquarium light runs 10 hours a day above his tank. He's fed twice a day, about 5-7 flies each time. We keep trying the other food, but he barely touches it.

Is a loss of appetite normal in the fall? (We live in Oklahome, and it's really starting to cool down--could that have an effect?) We take him out for a sunbath about 30 minutes a day when it's 75 degrees and sunny. Could he be bored? Are res smart enough to get bored? (Silly question to you, but I have no idea!) We had him in front of a window (south-facing), but he started to grow green fur on his shell. (Oops!) The algae is gone now, and his shell is clean. What about putting him back and using a chemical algae killer? I have access only to supplies at WalMart--is their stuff safe? We declorinate the water he's in, so it grows algae fast!

It's nice to know that there are people out there that know more than I do and are willing to share. Thanks!!

[grey goose]

My first guess would be parasites. Those "worm cubes", are they Tubefex worms? If so they are not good for turtles. They are loaded with fat and are known to sometimes contain parasites. Same thing with flies. Stop feeding both to your turt.....Does he show any interest in veggies like romaine lettuce?
Is his shell 4" (lengthwise)? A 10 gal tank is way too small for him. He'll need a minimum 40 gallon tank. I'd go with 55 gallon, as he will grow out of the 40 also. Ten gallons per inch of shell is the rule.....
When he does the "clawing" does he move back and forth or up and down in the same spot? This is known as "repetitive motion anxiety". There could be many reasons for this type of behavior, my guess would be either the tank is too small or again, it could be parasites causing havoc with his digestive system. Or both.
The water temp is way too warm for a healthy turt but since yours is probably ill, I'd leave it there until you take him to the Vet. Is he basking regularly?
Never place a tank too close to a window in direct sun. The sunlight could cause the water to heat up to a level that could kill your turtle!

I know this is a lot to ponder, but I think your best move would be to get him checked out by a good herp Vet, then go from there. Keep us posted.

[marisa]

Welcome to the forum. He's gone from being the size of a quarter to being four inches long since May? That's an awful lot of growth, which wouldn't happen with parasites (but he still could have some). How much do you feed him at feeding time? How often do you feed him?

I agree that Tubifex worms are often "unclean" and have very little, if any, nutrition. If it were me, I'd also stop finding flies for him for the very same reason. Have you tried other "live" foods like an earthworm or crickets? He also should be getting some plant matter in his diet.

Seeing a reflection and swimming against the glass to get to it doesn't sound all that uncommon. Doing it incessantly to me sounds like his enclosure is stressing him. A 10-gallon tank for a turtle his size is really to small. Does he have a basking area? Correct lighting (an aquarium light for fish is not what you want to use with a turtle)? Filtration?

The change of the seasons can affect appetite, but it sounds like your turtle needs a much better habitat. It would be good to do some reading and make some changes to see if his behavior changes any.

[SpotsMama]

Check the water quality and temperature too. It could be the water is making him uncomfortable. Could it be too hot? Could ammonia have built up? Could there be too much conditioner in the water?

[taanddean]

Hi! And thanks for all the comments--a lot to take in. Let me try to answer your questions as best I can.

To grey goose--Tubefex, yes. I know that for birds you have to freeze food before you use it to kill parasities of various kinds. Would this be a good idea for Yertles food as well? Store-bought or caught? (We do freeze flies when we have an abundance.) Lettuce and other veggies--very little interest, altho he will eat 2 types of grass-Bermuda and the leaves of a sticker we refer to locally as a goat-head. Why those 2? No clue. I have a pepper mint plant in the house--could I set it next to his tank and let it trail into the water for him to have a constant supply? Toxic? I don't know what is and isn't, and don't want to poison him!

Yes, 4" from back of his neck to the start of his tail. He needs a bigger tank? See, what I was told here was that 6-7 inches of water was too deep--he needed more like 2". I kept him in 6-7.

The clawing motion is done all OVER the tank. Up, down, side to side, reaching above the water line, at the very bottom--everywhere! Usually moving-rarely sitting in one place.

78-80 is too warm? Again-I was told that I needed a second heater because he needed 85 degrees. Thanks for not allowing me to cook him!

The is no vet within 150 miles that will look at a turtle. "If it dies, go get another one out of any farm pond in the county." No, I'm not kidding--it's sad.

When he was in (partial) sunlight, we watched water temperature--and never saw it go over 82. He was actually only in light for about 2 hours a day. Still not good, I take it?

marisa--Yes, he's grown very fast! I was astounded, but again, didn't know what was normal. At feeding time--up until he began to refuse food--he would get 10-12 hatchling pellets, 2 "sticks" (turtle food from WalMart) and 3/4 to a full cube of worms, all twice a day. He ate every bit of it and asked for more! That's why the drop-off in appetite has been so alarming. This morning, thinking that he might be refusing the other foods because he's just flat getting "spoiled" to flies, I deleted them totally. (Let me tell you, I never knew a turtle could give you a sad look, but his heart was in his eyes! I almost cried, he looked so betrayed.) He ate a stick and 3/4 of a cube of worms! Better than recent past, and I noticed he'd eaten some of the Bermuda grass I put in yesterday afternoon after his "walk".

He refuses live food--it seems to scare him.

He has a basking rock, but it's gotten too small to be comfortable. We're in the process of designing a new one and installing it. Lighting--what do I use? I have been told everything from a blacklight to regular bulbs.

SpotsMama--We do a partial (about 1/3) water change every 2nd or 3rd day, depending on how it looks. Most of what we suck out with the vacume is grass that he ignored (He hates seeds!) or droppings. We do a 3/4 to total water change weekly. We had a filter in there, but again, he acted like it scared him. (Yertle's kind of a coward--he gets scared easily!) Too much conditioner? Perhaps. We follow package directions for the de-chlorinator/conditioner that we get for fish and turtles at (again) WalMart. The lady in the pet department is as good as it gets for advice, but the turtles that she's had have been fosters (usually babies) that were released into her pond when they were ready. She's had no long term turtles, and neither has anyone else I can find around here. Amonia? How do I tell? I was trying to err to the side of caution by changing water frequently.

We tried dechlorinating by pulling the water up and letting it set for 36 hours before we used it, but I wondered if that was contributing to the algae problem, so we stopped. I like not using chemicals, but....

I have one more question, and this one my son and I have debated hotly. I think I know the answer, but he is hoping...We are leaving sometime in the next year to go travel in our motor home. He wants to take Yertle, but I can't imagine it would be safe. The motion, the change in water every few days, keeping his temperature constant...Am I missing something? My son will be ecstatic if you say yes, but I can't imagine that it's a good idea. Comments?

I hope I've answered everyone' questions--I know you've given me a LOT to think about, and ideas to try. Thanks to all of you!

[SpotsMama]

I'm guessing that a combination of things are making Yertle anxious and that's why he's acting frantic to get out.

Parasites is a possibility. If your local vet won't treat a turtle, maybe they will at least check a stool sample for parasites. That shouldn't be expensive - I think I paid $18 for it in Dallas. If it turns out he has parasites, then treatment is a different matter. That has to be done with care so as not to poison the turtle. We'll cross that bridge if and when you come to it.

There is likely a buildup of ammonia in the tank. Turtle's waste is largely ammonia which is caustic and toxic. Even with the frequent water changes - and it sounds like you're being diligent there - it's going to be impossible to keep the water quality good with such a small volume of water. Fill that tank up as far as you can (2" of water would be torture for an aquatic turtle - glad you're keeping it higher than that) EXCEPT make sure that the water and basking platform aren't so close to the rim of the aquarium that there is any conceivable way he could escape. Turtles are remarkably good climbers so take care!

Then, until you can get a larger container, change the water 100% at least once a week - twice is better. He's going to have to have very frequent changes to keep the waste diluted to the point that it's comfortable for him.

Then, find a larger home for him. You might as well look in the 55 gallon range now because at the rate he's growing he'll need it in the very near future. If it's not in your budget to get a big glass aquarium in that range right now, you can use a large rubbermaid container. They make very good turtle homes and are very inexpensive. I got a 50 gallon one from Lowes for $16.

Once you get a right sized container - and a good filter - you won't have nearly as much work to do keeping the water fresh. It will make a huge difference in your quality of life as well as Yertle's. When Yertle has more space he'll be happier because not only will it be cleaner but he won't feel cramped. In the wild they live in large ponds and lakes so really love space to swim and dive.

For the time being, you can also feed him in a separate container outside his tank. That will help keep the water cleaner.

Lower the water temperature to no more than 75 degrees. Basking temp can be 88 to 90 degrees.

Letting the water sit for a day so the chlorine will evaporate is fine though it's really not necessary. Chlorine won't poison a turtle the way it will a fish though it sometimes causes mild eye irritation. A good reptile specific water conditioner like Reptisafe has other things in it besides dechlorinators that are helpful to reptiles, like ammonia removers and electrolytes, so if you want to use some that would be fine.

Here's some good info on turtle diet. Why don't you look it over. He's probably been getting too much protein in his diet. If it's not clear after you've read it how much to feed him - how many pellets, etc - let us know and we can help.

http://www.redearslider.com/index_nutrition.html

Hope that helps!

[taanddean]

Hi again! Parasites--I'll ask the vet if he'll do a stool sample. Worst he can do is say no...

His water is as high as it can go without climbing out being a risk. (I suspended a cuttlebone just above the waterline once, and found him hanging from the thing by his claws and trying hard to use it as a ladder to get out! No more cuttlebone until I figure out how to hang it properly.)

I can get a larger countainer tomorrow! I was uncertain about a plastic, but you say it's okay, so...I'm not sure if the filter I have will work--I'll try. Water temp will get turned down tonight.

Chlorine's not a problem? That's good to know! I was having trouble keeping enough dechlorinator on hand! ) Really, we were going thru it like crazy--I'll cut it in half next water change and watch his eyes.

The ReptoMin sticks in the artical you attached are the ones I've been feeding. I'll get their pellets next week at WalMart. And calcium? How do you feed calcium? I tried cuttlebone which is a good source, but...

I noticed this afternoon on his walk that Yertle's shell is odd. A few of the scales are pale at the back end of each scale, and they almost look like they are trying to come loose--just the very thin top layer of shell, certainly not the entire thickness. Have you ever had a fingernail peel? Just the top layer? That's exactly what it looks like. I know in a person that's potassium deficiency--turtles too? Bananas is the proper treatment in babies-how about res? Or is it just normal shell growth? I've not noticed it before.

You have no idea how grateful I am for everyone taking the time to teach me. I'll check this again tomorrow--everyone have a good evening.

[octpusgirl8]

About the cuttlebone, you need to take off the hard backing that's on one side. One side is really soft, you can dig your fingernail into it, but the other side is hard. That's the part you gotta take off. It helps to break it into smaller pieces, then you can get a knife under it and cut/pry it off. Be careful not to cut yourself! it gets a little easier once you get the hang of it, but it's still a pain. Once you have all the hard bits off, you can just drop a piece in the water for him. Another option for calcium is to get a powder like repto-cal and dust it onto a feeder cricket or worm or something similar. I used to do this for my turtle until he started eating his cuttlebone.
On the shell issue, it sounds like he's shedding his scutes. This is normal and healthy, so don't worry. Don't pick at them either, they'll come off when they're ready.
It sounds like you care a lot about your little guy, it's great that you're trying to give him a good life.

[SpotsMama]

You're going to be a good turtle Mom - I can just tell!

That's really funny about your turtle climbing the cuttlebone to escape the tank! I can almost see it.

Cuttlebone is an excellent source of calcium - and cheap and easy to find so you can't beat it. Be sure and pry off the hard plastic-like backing. If you press a fingernail into each side of a cuttlebone, you'll find that it goes in easily on one side but not the other. On the hard side, there's a thin layer that turtles shouldn't eat because it's not digestable and it's sharp so could conceivably injure a turtle inside. You can pry it off with a knife. In the process, the cuttlebone will undoubtedly break into pieces, which is fine.

You have a couple of choices how to serve cuttlebone. Some people simply let pieces of it float in the tank and turtles nibble on it when they feel like it. I like to anchor a piece with a vegie clip - the clip holds it in place so it doesn't slid away when the turtle tries to bite it. Here's the kind I use:

http://www.petco.com/product/6124/Lee-s ... -Clip.aspx

You can attach the cuttlebone to the side of the tank with the clip so it's below the water level so little Yertle can't use it like a ladder.

One thing to keep in mind (forgive me if I'm repeating something you already know) is that a turtle need to bask under a good UVB light bulb (or else natural sun) in order for his body to utilize the calcium he eats. It's part of the biological process. The light makes his body produce vitamin D3 which enables him to metabolize calcium.

Yertle's shell sounds like it getting ready to shed - which is a normal and good thing. They shed the very thin top layer periodically - more often when they are young and growing and it slows down when they are older. Don't pull the shedding pieces off unless they are very loose and come off easily without pulling too hard. If you peel the pieces off before they are ready it may damage the shell. Most of the time the pieces will fall off on their own.

Good luck with all your shopping. Let us know as you have more questions.