General Care Discussion :: Ammonia problem - what am I doing wrong?

[merri23]

How big is your turtle? 6.5 inches
How long have you had it? 9 years

What is the water temperature? 75 degrees at one end, 85 at the other
Did you use a thermometer? Yes
Are you using a water heater? Yes
How much water is in there? It is probably 2/3 full???
Are you using a water conditioner? Yes (Reptisafe whenever I add tap water, and Seachems recently to address the ammonia problem)
Are you using any filtration? Yes, Filstar XP3

What is the basking temperature? Haven't measured for awhile, was 90 the last time we checked
Is there a basking light? yes, PowerSun
Is there a basking platform that is easy to climb on? yes
What kind is it or what is it made out of? Large Basking Ramp (green plastic one)
Is there a UVB light? yes, from PowerSun and a 5.0 Reptisun

What have you been trying to feed it? rotates between turtle jello and Reptomin
When was the last time your turtle ate? yesterday - appetite is not a problem!

How big is the tank/pond/enclosure? 65 gallons
Is the tank near a window? no
Is the tank in a room with a lot of activity? no

Have you read the Basic Care section? yes
Have you searched the forums for similar situations? yes

Is there any other unusual activity/symptoms? See below.

Hi everyone - I have a nine-year old False Map turtle. He has an XP3 filter and up until December, this filter was working really well. I was testing the ammonia level regularly and it was always yellow (0) (I have the bottle ammonia tester where I get the water in a beaker, then put in eight drops of Ammonia #1 and then eight drops of Ammonia #2).

I do monthly filter changes, and in mid-December, his filter was looking really grimy so I lightly rinsed his sponges, noticed a lot of brown stuff coming off, and them immediately stopped rinsing them because I was worried about losing the bacteria. I replaced the foam at the top of the filter like I do every month, and then the next day the water was really cloudy. Unfortunatley, Rocky is really sensitive to water quality so two weeks later, he refused pellets, which he never does, so I started putting Seachems in and he started eating again, and eventually the ammonia improved to look yellow greenish (.25 - never got down to 0 all the way).

So then it was time for another filter change in mid-January. I didn't touch the sponges and just replaced the foam and carbon. Again, after this change, the water was cloudy. I have been regularly testing since then and it still is never 0 (usually around .5 - greenish).

I really don't understand what I'm doing wrong? I think the filter is ok because before the mid-December change, the ammonia level was fine. I also rinse everything in tank water (no tap water) and do regular water changes always using Reptisafe (20-25% two times a week). I also have continued to put in the Seachems because, whenever I stop, the ammonia reading gets worse, so at this point I have been putting a capful in for two weeks straight, and I don't know if that is too much or not? I have tested the tap water and it is bright yellow (no ammonia) so that is not the problem either.

I am very worried about the water quality because Rocky is very sensitive to water quality and is recovering from a very serious bout of pneumonia from last year. His behavior has also changed dramatically to the point where he doesn't seem to want to be in the water very much. He used to always sleep on his hammock but now he sleeps on his basking platform and only comes down in the water around the mid-day to beg for food for a couple of hours. Once he has eaten, then he will go right up the basking platform and stay there for the night.

If anyone could tell me what I'm doing wrong with these filter changes, or how to get the ammonia out of the water, I would greatly appreciate it! Thanks

[TurtleKeeper48]

So, normally - your Ammonia would go up for a while, then the Nitrites would start to come up and the Ammonia would start to go down, then as the Nitrites are getting a little high, the Nitrates start to appear and the Nitrites start to go down. Then Ammonia and Nitrites pretty much stick at 0 and only your Nitrates will slowly go up untill you change out some water - Right?

Are you getting any Nitrites showing up?

It sounds to me (and I’m no expert) like you are not getting your biological filtration – and you used to.

You mentioned replacing sponges, foam, and carbon. Do you replace your bio media?

I just noticed watching the set up DVD for the new filter I bought that Fluval recommends replacing bio media from time to time, not just the carbon.

I’m actually pretty new to the hobby, but I’ve been really reading up on this stuff and mostly wanted to reply to subscribe to this thread!

But, for what it’s worth, I think I’d clean up everything and replace the bio media and start fresh with clean water, a clean filter, and new bio media. Of course the tank will have to cycle – you should test water every two days and do half water changes as needed to control Ammonia and Nitrites until the tank has cycled.

[jay2487]

If you have to use conditioner for the tap water then you have to rinse your filters in conditioned water or the chlorine from the tap will instantly kill the bacteria. If you change the entire filter at once then you've killed all that bacteria as well. Most lives in the filter inserts and the substrate. So if change them altogether the bacteria is mostly gone, causing a recycle which means high ammonia levels. Chemicals aren't going to fix this, you have to recycle. You have your source of ammonia in the turtle. All you need to do is keep testing but add testing for nitrates and nitrites, change about 30 to 50% of the water daily, until all the water parameters come back together. Remember to condition all water. If your using city water it will kill the bacteria. Also, you might want to check your thermometers, either that or you have a 8' long tank. with a filter constantly moving the water there is no way there is a 10 degree difference in water temps from one side of the tank to the other. Either you have the heater sitting on the thermostat, or your basking light shining on it or something because water temps are going to even out through the tank.

[merri23]

If you have to use conditioner for the tap water then you have to rinse your filters in conditioned water or the chlorine from the tap will instantly kill the bacteria. If you change the entire filter at once then you've killed all that bacteria as well. Most lives in the filter inserts and the substrate. So if change them altogether the bacteria is mostly gone, causing a recycle which means high ammonia levels. Chemicals aren't going to fix this, you have to recycle. You have your source of ammonia in the turtle. All you need to do is keep testing but add testing for nitrates and nitrites, change about 30 to 50% of the water daily, until all the water parameters come back together. Remember to condition all water. If your using city water it will kill the bacteria. Also, you might want to check your thermometers, either that or you have a 8' long tank. with a filter constantly moving the water there is no way there is a 10 degree difference in water temps from one side of the tank to the other. Either you have the heater sitting on the thermostat, or your basking light shining on it or something because water temps are going to even out through the tank.

I do actually rinse all the filter parts in the old tank water and make sure not to touch them with tap water.

I have tested for nitrates and they are always high. I have never been able to get them down and have accepted that fact. The ammonia is what I am really concerned with.

The 85 degree part is right next to the heaters (and not a digital thermometer). The digital thermometer is on the opposite side of the tank and reads around 75 degrees.

Does anyone else agree I should just replace everything and start the cycle over again? What I would really like to know is what is going wrong with the filter change so I can avoid doing it next time!!!

[jay2487]

If you only have one filter running and you change that insert then it's going to lose cycle. It will have to regrow all that bacteria before it can keep up with the ammonia. Nitrates are good. Nitrates are the bacterias waste after eating ammonia. Nitrites are whats toxic. You keep track of nitrates to keep track whether or not the cycle is progressing. If you want to get rid of nitrates just add live plants, they eat em. I always use two filters on any tank I have just so your problem doesn't occur. That way you can completely replace one cartridge without losing cycle

[merri23]

If you only have one filter running and you change that insert then it's going to lose cycle. It will have to regrow all that bacteria before it can keep up with the ammonia. Nitrates are good. Nitrates are the bacterias waste after eating ammonia. Nitrites are whats toxic. You keep track of nitrates to keep track whether or not the cycle is progressing. If you want to get rid of nitrates just add live plants, they eat em. I always use two filters on any tank I have just so your problem doesn't occur. That way you can completely replace one cartridge without losing cycle

Jay - are you defining an insert as the foam I am replacing? I thought that was ok to replace? When you clean your tank, exactly what to do take out and replace or rinse off? Thanks.

[vear]

I wouldn't clean out your tank. You're just going to have the same problem, and the cycle will start all over again. What foam inserts are you replacing? To me, foam and sponges are the same thing. If you're referring to the very fine sponges, I don't even have those in the filter b/c they clog up easily.

I never replace foam/sponges, I only rinse them in tank water. You should never rinse your biological filtration... do you have any of the "stars" (i forget the name) the xp3 came with? I have an XP4 and I added more of those to increase the surface area for bacterial growth. The only thing I replace is the carbon ( i like to have it for odors ).

I say you stick with daily (small) partial water changes and keep testing the water.

Good luck.

[merri23]

I wouldn't clean out your tank. You're just going to have the same problem, and the cycle will start all over again. What foam inserts are you replacing? To me, foam and sponges are the same thing. If you're referring to the very fine sponges, I don't even have those in the filter b/c they clog up easily.

I never replace foam/sponges, I only rinse them in tank water. You should never rinse your biological filtration... do you have any of the "stars" (i forget the name) the xp3 came with? I have an XP4 and I added more of those to increase the surface area for bacterial growth. The only thing I replace is the carbon ( i like to have it for odors ).

I say you stick with daily (small) partial water changes and keep testing the water.

Good luck.

Thanks for the reply! I use the fine particle foam (micro filtration pad) and that's what I replace each month per the filter's instructions. What would you use instead of this? Am I losing bacteria by replacing this?

The xp3 didn't come with any "stars." I have ceramic rings I had before with my old Fluval, and I will typically rinse these in old tank water each month. I thought "stars" were the same as carbon?

Is there any way you can explain all the media you have and how often you clean it and what you do when you clean it? I think that would help a lot! The thing I really want to know is what I'm doing wrong so I don't keep getting cloudy water after each filter change.

[mikee]

mer-23 It sounds like a filtration problem and a water volume problem. You should have at least five time the volume turn over per hour. I like a little more but if everything is working the 5x rule works. Good Luck!

[vear]

The ceramic rings are not carbon. Do they look like this?: http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_viewitem. ... nt=HG11456 (sorry for the long link). If so, that's where your bacterial colonies form. You don't rinse those. My rena came with these: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/images/Ca ... 17548D.jpg Also for bacterial growth. Same purpose, and they don't get rinsed.

The microfiltration pad doesn't work well at all for a turtle tank. I had it for about a month and then tossed it out. It gets clogged way too easily because of all the turtle waste (I'm sure it would be great if I were only keeping fish). I only use the sponges: http://s3.amazonaws.com/tc-photos/11442 ... 504961.jpg I have 2 "coarse" and 1 "fine". The coarse catches the big stuff and the fine catches the smaller bits.

By the way, there are different types of carbon, this is one of them: http://s3.amazonaws.com/tc-photos/11442 ... 508250.jpg and another one: http://s3.amazonaws.com/tc-photos/11442 ... 508246.jpg Some people go without the carbon, it doesn't last very long anyway, that you have to replace often, however I feel like I need it or else my tank starts to smell "fishy" - as others put it.

I feel like you shouldn't have lost ALL your bacteria by throwing out the foam. Although I think you said that you started rinsing the sponges in Dec. If it was tap water, you killed the bacteria, if you then switched out your foam, you must have gotten rid of a lot of the colonies and your tank must have had to start from scratch. But I don't know. This probably shouldn't have happened, I'm just thinking "outloud".

Anyway, whatever happened I'm sure your tank must be cycling. I'd again say, partial water changes. Filters are confusing at first, but your water should get better. If not, let us know.

edit: I just re-read your first post. If instead of carbon, what you're switching out are the rena "stars" you're getting rid of your bacteria. Take a look at the link I gave you - if that's what you have... don't throw them out

[merri23]

The ceramic rings are not carbon. Do they look like this?: http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_viewitem. ... nt=HG11456 (sorry for the long link). If so, that's where your bacterial colonies form. You don't rinse those. My rena came with these: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/images/Ca ... 17548D.jpg Also for bacterial growth. Same purpose, and they don't get rinsed.

The microfiltration pad doesn't work well at all for a turtle tank. I had it for about a month and then tossed it out. It gets clogged way too easily because of all the turtle waste (I'm sure it would be great if I were only keeping fish). I only use the sponges: http://s3.amazonaws.com/tc-photos/11442 ... 504961.jpg I have 2 "coarse" and 1 "fine". The coarse catches the big stuff and the fine catches the smaller bits.

By the way, there are different types of carbon, this is one of them: http://s3.amazonaws.com/tc-photos/11442 ... 508250.jpg and another one: http://s3.amazonaws.com/tc-photos/11442 ... 508246.jpg Some people go without the carbon, it doesn't last very long anyway, that you have to replace often, however I feel like I need it or else my tank starts to smell "fishy" - as others put it.

I feel like you shouldn't have lost ALL your bacteria by throwing out the foam. Although I think you said that you started rinsing the sponges in Dec. If it was tap water, you killed the bacteria, if you then switched out your foam, you must have gotten rid of a lot of the colonies and your tank must have had to start from scratch. But I don't know. This probably shouldn't have happened, I'm just thinking "outloud".

Anyway, whatever happened I'm sure your tank must be cycling. I'd again say, partial water changes. Filters are confusing at first, but your water should get better. If not, let us know.

edit: I just re-read your first post. If instead of carbon, what you're switching out are the rena "stars" you're getting rid of your bacteria. Take a look at the link I gave you - if that's what you have... don't throw them out

Thanks again for the reply! I really do appreciate it. I have read this board religiously since Rocky got sick last year, and so I definitely know not to rinse in tap water and about the cycle, but I am just worried because it seems like it should have been cycled already since mid-December. I felt like it was getting better, but then after the filter cleaning in mid-January, it was cloudy water again and I just don't get what is going wrong.

I always do 50% water changes each week (20-25% every three days), but that hasn't seemed to help.

Right now, the way the filter's set up, I have the carbon and microfiltration pad on top, then the ceramic rings (as in the link you provided), and then four sponges on bottom. So in your set up, you have the carbon on top, then the stars, and then three sponges on the bottom?

I have been rinsing the ceramic rings, and I guess I shouldn't have been doing that, but if I don't do that, then what exactly should the filter cleaning consist of? I guess that is where I am really confused. I wish they had a guide for this!

[jay2487]

Any filter of any sort has some type of media on which the bacteria grows, some also have an extra charcoal or carbon pad. If you replace the media, whether it be a sponge in a canister, a floss insert or a blue pouch with carbon in it, and it is the only one in the tank or filter, then you can almost guarantee it will recycle. Now the bacteria in the substrate and anywhere else it might survive will give you a head start so it's not like your starting from scratch. The only time I replace a cartridge in my filters is when it starts to come apart or no matter how much I rinse and clean it, water just won't flow through it anymore. That can take a year or more for me. Most of the time they clog up because of big debris on the outside so when you knock it off it works fine again. That's why I stick to HOBs. I can always just grab the insert, slap it around a couple times rinse it off and drop it back in. Oh and Merri, they do have a guide! Just google aquarium fish in cycling. Aquaticcommunity.com has a forum of pros on just that subject. If theres a way to mess up then they have seen it and done it and can tell you how to avoid it. It's where I learned how to go 6 months without doing a water change;)