General Care Discussion :: Water pH and shell health

[reptilegrrl]

I posted about this awhile back and I'm ready to make an update.

The firs issue: I moved to this house one year ago. At that time, Al started retaining shed scutes. At first I didn't think it was a problem but they built up like crazy and I was getting concerned.

The second issue: a few months ago, Al had his first case of shell rot. It was fungal. We went to the vet and got some treatment advice, but the vet also told me that a high pH in the water can contribute to fungal shell rot. He advised me to keep the pH about 6 and to keep lots of plants in the water.

So, I battled the shell rot for months. I treated it topically and also struggled to lower the pH of the water. It would go away and then come back because of the water, so I would have to treat it topically again. Round and round! It went this way because you have to gradually lower pond pH, so I was having to do it little by little.

The pH has been between 6 and 7 for the past 2 weeks or so, and even before that, when it started to get l ower than 7.5 or so, I started seeing a difference. Al's shell is fungus-free, and get this: he's even shedding his scutes regularly again, with no help from me. I saw one on the bottom of the pond today, in fact.

I think the thing to take away from this is that water quality DOES affect our pets, and in ways we might not imagine. The water might be very very clean, but if the pH is too high or too low, it could open the door to an infection.

[SpotsMama]

That is very very interesting. The tap water here is very alkaline - ph well over 8. Spot has scutes that need to shed - I know they do - but they just won't. Also, he's had some sort of damage to his shell in the past, I'm not sure from what, but possibly fungus. I worry a lot about his shell. I tried a few weeks ago to lower the ph but got really bad cloudy water. I couldn't even put Spot in the tank with it like that. I've got a new tank now and am getting a nice new filter and some other equipment in a couple of days, and I'm going to make a concerted effort to bring that ph down to see if it won't help Spot's shell.

It was really good to hear you could help your turt's shell. Now I just have to figure out how to do it without clouding the water.

[SpotsMama]

What exactly did you do to bring the pond ph down?

[reptilegrrl]

I initially tried peat moss, on the vet's advice, but it was not acidic enough to bring the pH down. If you have a small setup, you can put some peat in a sock or leg of pantyhose, ties a knot in it, and dangle it in the water like a tea bag. Peat is acidic and should bring the pH down if you don't have a very big setup.

In my case, the peat was not enough to bring my pH down, so I bought some pond pH adjuster at the pet store.

[SpotsMama]

I have two setups - the new one is a 100 gallon tank with probably 70 gallons of water in it. I'll try the peat-moss-in-a-sock thing with that. Do you think just regular peat moss from a nursary would be safe?

The other setup is a rather large, plastic wading pool outside. It has a nice basking platform but no filter. The nitrification cycle seems to be working even in the absense of a filter because the water quality tests are always excellent - except of course for the ph. I plan to install a good permanent pond in the near future, after the indoor setup is stabilized.

I'll focus first on the indoor setup since as the weather gets colder Spot has to have a place to go. Then I'll work on the ph in the outdoor setup.

I got some ph adjuster for a swimming pool awhile back but have been afraid to use it. Do you thank it would be safe for a turtle pond? I'm not sure what a ph adjuster is, chemically, and whether different products might have different additives.

[reptilegrrl]

Yes, just use regular peat from a nursery.

No, do not use pH adjustor for your pool. Go to a pet store and get some pH adjuster for PONDS. It should say that it is safe for fish.

Remember, pH fluctuates throughout the day, and is highest in the late afternoon, so when you test, test at the same time each day to get an idea of the median.

If you ever get down to Houston LMK and you can come see my pond I made my own biofilter and am about to make a prefilter. I linked it in another forum post.

[SpotsMama]

Got it! And I'd love to see your pond some day!

I'm very anxious to see if fixing the ph fixes Spot's shell problem. I've seen two vets, and neither really knew what the problem was or what to do about it. One advertises to be a herp vet, and I'm sure she'd be very good with a lot of problems but this one she didn't know about. I wonder if the importance of ph in maintaining shell health has generally been underestimated.

[reptilegrrl]

What are the symptoms of his shell problem?

[marisa]

The thing with peat to be aware of is that it will take calcium and other minerals from the water.

The house water that goes through a softener here tested at 7.6. I've been using spring water until now, but may resort to the house water if I go with a much bigger tank for the painteds. I've asked around about his, and have gotten the response that for RES and Painteds, this normally isn't a problem. I'll see...

[reptilegrrl]

My tap water's pH is above 9 right out of the tap The fungus kept recurring until I got the pH to about 7.

I hadn't heard that about peat- I do give Al cuttlebone, though.

[SpotsMama]

The tapwater here is a little over 8.5. I think of Spot's shell problems as three different things. Two have been addressed - I think - but the third has not and I'm hoping ph will be the solution.

Problem 1: Spot had some pyramiding early on that still shows some but it's not gotten worse over the past year - it's gotten better. I understand that it was due to too much protein in his earlier diet.

Problem 2: The old parts of his shell are white. The white is hard, not slimy and doesn't smell bad. It is somewhat translucent in water but gets opaque when dry. Underneath looks like it might be normal shell.
The white looks a lot like a calcium or other mineral residue on the shell's surface.

New shell has grown since he's been outside this summer making a border around the old sections of shell. The color is a nice healthy dark green with a little yellow striping. I think being in the natural sunlight is what's doing it. Until I found this website just a few months ago Spot almost totally lacked UVB (something the first vet didn't tell me about). If I can keep the UVB up I'm hoping the white problem - whatever it is - will be solved.

Problem 3: Spot doesn't shed his scutes - at all. This summer, though, a couple of them started lifting. I keep hoping they will go ahead and shed but no luck so far. The only change has been that a whole bunch of them started lifting around the edges after my abortive attempt at lowering the ph a couple of weeks ago. I didn't make the connection then but your topic got me to thinking that maybe there was a cause-and-effect and if I just keep that ph down for awhile he'll go ahead and shed. That will solve problem 3!

Whew! More than you really wanted to hear I'm sure! My appologies for going on and on and on.....If anyone else has any ideas, I'm interested!

[reptilegrrl]

Problem 2 sounds like retained keratin. This can be caused by vitamin deficiency, by high pH, or by a turtle not basking enough. Have you tried dry-docking him overnight, to see if that helps it peel?


Problem 3 is causing problem 2. Try dry-docking him overnight, and try to get your pH to between 6 and 7. I hope these help!

Not more than I want to know at all

[SpotsMama]

Thanks. What you say makes sense.

Spot didn't bask very much when he was inside but he basks a lot - three or more hours a day - outside.

I tried keeping him in a dry 10 gallon tank - and other containers - but he felt compelled to climb constantly, and kept falling over on his back, so I haven't tried in a long time.

I wonder if he were in the dark if he would go to sleep? I'll try it keeping him in a dry container in the dark with some soft towels to hide in.

Thank you so much for taking the time to try to help with my problem! You're very kind!

[reptilegrrl]

You are quite welcome!

It does sound likethe pH is your problem, but you may also be able to help it by dry-docking him. When I need to dry-dock Al, I put him in a deep plastic storage tub with a soft towel, and leave him there overnight, in a warm, dark room. He does go to sleep.

Good luck, I hope things improve!