General Care Discussion :: My turtle Andy! Can someone look at her shell?

[Ktulu]

Hi, I have had my RES female (I think) Andy since she was only a few weeks old in Nov. 2004. She has grown quite well as you can see and I always make sure when I get a new pet to research it so I know somewhat what I am doing. I know about the lighting, the filtration, the heat, the voracious appetite, etc.... But, on feeding, I could never get a good enough answer. Basically since I got her, I have been feeding her Reptomin pellets (more than I should I have now learned) about 2x/day just because she would eat them. I know they start off mostly carnivorous and then move owards herbivorous and that they should be fed once every 1-2 days (1 day when younger). However I just figured that she was extra hungry and 2 times/day wouldn't harm her. So, I feed her Reptomin pellets mainly, occasionally a leaf of romaine, and her favourite, live crickets (about 30), once per month. I have lately (I guess thankfully) cut back to one feeding daily, at night, of the Reptomin pellets (but still more pellets than I should). Also, I have noticed that Andy's shell, as far back as I can remember, has never been completely smooth and flat. When she is dried off (like when basking), her shell looks like it's dry and shedding, peeling (like the equivalent to dry skin). Also, she has a little bit of "pits" along the side areas of the shell and a bit of the bumpiness down the center back portion. Lastly, the shell seems to curve upwards a bit at the en of the back by her hind legs. She is otherwise normal, she eats like crazy when there is food, she loves to bask (temp. mid/high 80s), loves to swim (water temp. high 70s - 80), she is strong as an ox, she has a PowerSun Mercury vapour basking lamp on 12hrs/day, and 2 other ReptiSun 5.0 flourescent strips lighting the tank from above (the fluorescents are sorta old but the mercury vapour light I jhust got last month). She also has a huge tank (120gal) and a big canister filter to clean it. Oh and she is alone in the tank. Here are some pics of her and her shell, what do you guys think? Is there something you guys can see that you could give me some pointers on? I am guessing that the abundence of Reptomin pellets being fed to her twice/day over the past 3.5 years may have something to do with misforming her shell a bit (thank God I found this forum and clued in that maybe she had been getting overfed on those pellets)? She has been getting too much pellet food right? What do you guys think about her shell? I am guessing it can't be too extreme considering she is still acting just as turtle-ish as she always has.

[Vtolds]

Well it looks like you may have some Pyramiding from probably being over fed and other than that she doesn't look bad too me.

[TheComputerGremlin]

I think there's a good amount of pyramiding going on. At that amount, I don't think it will hurt her, but you need to get her on a proper diet IMMEDIATELY. Otherwise, the pyramiding can get to the point that she cannot move or eat.

Pellets (as many as would fit inside her head if it were hollow) every OTHER day. Don't give into begging.

A variety of veggies every day, romaine, green/red leaf lettuces, collards, carrots, squash, sweet potato, blueberries. Don't overfeed veggies either!

Crickets, once a month, only, and probably again, only as many as would fit inside her hollow head. You can forgo the pellets when you feed the crickets. I don't think 30 crickets is appropriate. Maybe 4-5 small ones. You can by freeze dried ones unless you have other reptiles around to eat live ones.

[SpotsMama]

What a sweet turtle. Is Andy short for Andrea? She's a lucky girl to have that nice big tank.

Does she have a cuttlebone in the tank? Has she had the good UVB light all along or is it a recent addition? Turtles need a good deal of calcium to build a strong shell and bones, and then they must bask under good UVB light in order to metabolize the calcium they have eaten.

Reptomin is a good brand of pellet. Don't feed her more pellets than would fit in her head every other day. If she misses being fed too much, you can feed her half a headful every day. Most of her diet at this point should be the veggies - daily servings of green leafy things like leaf lettuce, collards, turnip greens and servings of other types of veggies and fruit a couple of times a week for variety. Have you tried aquatic plants like anacharis? Turtles like to eat it and you can leave it in the tank and it won't spoil like lettuce.

What's causing the red hues in the photos? Is there a red light?

You can drop the water temperature down to 73 to 75 degrees. A temp that's too high speeds up their metabolisms too much and also causes excess skin shedding.

There's some pyramiding and the edge of the shell is curling somewhat and those are conditions caused by dietary problems. An improved diet will help but you won't see the improvement over night - shells are very slow to grow. In addition, it looks like Andy is overdue for a good scute shed - there seems to be a thick layer of piled up scutes all over her shell. Has she shed scutes since you've had her? Besides frequent basking under a good UVB light, another thing that helps a turtle shed is vitamin e. Here are some foods containing vitamin e that turtles like:

Tomato
Sweet potato
Turnip greens
Blueberries
Apple skin

I can't see the peeling shell in the photos. Are layers actually peeling off the shell, or does it just look like it's about to peel? If it's actually shedding, then it's a good thing, but I can't see the lifting around the edges that usually signifies normal shedding in the photos.

What does her plastron look like?

[Ktulu]

he red in the photos is just the red from the heat lamp I had clamped to the bin (the pics were taken this evening in her nesting bin). She has had this mercury vapour lamp for only about 1.5 months, but it is a replacement for the one she had before that which was the exact same kind and she had that one for a good year so the good lamps aren't a new thing. And she has always, even before getting the mercury vapour lamp, had 5.0 fluorescent lights and even now she still has a 2ft. 5.0 fluorescent above the tank as well as the mercury lamp. that 5.0 fluorescent may be needing replacing about now though. Cuttlebone I tried once but she didn't use it , should I try it again? For the shedding, yes I am actually seeing things flaking and peeling off her shell. The things look like small green super-thin flakes that start by peeling up and then I suppose they fall off (kinda look like the way human skin becomes dry and peels off gradually in a flake and comes off except this is on a turtle shell) does this sound like a scute shed? I never got what a scute is exactly other than just parts of the shell; are they just individual flakes or something? Her tummy looks fine, and her shell is pretty hard if you ask me, I tried pressing around it a bit and it wouldn't budge. How much veggies do I give her each time?

[SpotsMama]

The lights sound good.

On cuttlebone, yes give it another try. Turtles really do need a lot of calcium - especially females if they start laying eggs - and cuttlebone also helps keep their "beaks" trim. You can just leave some in the tank for her to nibble on when she craves calcium. She won't want it every day. Sometimes my turtle nibbles on his every day and sometimes he'll ignore it for a week.

On the scute shedding, what sheds is a very thin translucent layer - at least that's the way it goes in a good, healthy shed. Each scute sheds separately. People find the pieces like fingernails on the bottom of the tank. Sometimes the layer flakes off in little pieces. When they don't shed for a long time, the layers can build up to be quite thick, and then when they finally shed it may come off (or flake off) in thick layers.

If you can retrieve a piece of what's flaked off and show us a photo, that would be helpful.

[marisa]

I see more scutes that need to be shed than actual pyramiding, but curling of the shell is also a sign that she's been overfed and has had too much protein in the diet (which I know you're going to correct if you haven't already).

The scutes are the plates that cover the turtle's shell. A scute that's shed usually comes off in one piece and looks just like the new scute now covering the shell. If a scute is covering an area where there's a pattern (like the dark blotches on the lower shell/plastron) you'd likely see that faint pattern in the shed scute.

The shell looks quite dried out, and it looks like it will be some time before scutes start coming off in one piece. Just curious, but what's the temp of the basking area and water? How often is the tank water changed?

It depends in part on what kind of veggies you're talking about as to how much to give. If you're talking about leafy greens like lettuce, I'd give a good sized leaf. I take out the heavy veins that run down the leaf, especially with a lettuce like romaine, and give only the green parts. If your turtle likes leafy greens, you might try dandelions, either from the lawn if it hasn't been treated with pesticides, or from a store that sells them. They're healthy and have a good calcium/phosphorus ratio.

[Ktulu]

Water temperatur was usually in the high 70's in her old 90gallon tank. Then I upgraded to the new 120gallon tank in February and left the heater at the same level. But since there is more water to heat in the new tank, the temperature doesn't stay as high as the heater is set to. I bought a new thermometer today, a digital one with external probe, and it's in the middle of the tank now submerged and reading about 75.4 degrees. I have always had a digital thermometer in the basking spot by hanging it from the top of the tank, the same thermometer as the one I bought today, and it stays between 84-90degrees depending upon how high the water level is (I use floating turtle docks as basking spots, so as the water level rises, the docks which are right underneath the thermometer probe rise too and as they rise closer and closer to the probe, more and more heat bounces off of them from the heat lamp and radiates onto the probe). I also replaced my Reptisum 5.0 24" fluorescent tube today and also added a ReptiSun 5.0 18" fluorescent tube to the top of the tank. Also, I got a cuttlebone today and offered it to her and she has already taken quite a few chunks out of it so I guess she wanted the Calcium. I also got her some romaine and blueberries. She has always liked Romaine, but didn't get iot as often as she should ands so that will now be replacing ReptoMin pellets as her main food. I gave her one leaf in the water in several pieces so that should last her the night. Also , I gave her 2 blueberries, small ones, but she hasn't noticed them yet cuz they fell into her tank and sank to the bottom. But, as she is s cavenging the gravel at some point I am sure she will find them. I also bought a 16"Lx10"Wx7"H plastic container. I cut out the top half on one of the long sides so she could step into it from the turtle docks, filled it with some soft dirt , and secured it in the top of the tank by the basking spot. Hopefully she will now use this for nesting if she does indeed have eggs in her. And I pump the tank using a long python gravel pump about 1/month and add about 15 gallons of conditioned water (1 cap of Aqua Plus for every 10 galllons of water) every 10 days due to evaporation.

[Ktulu]

Here are some more pics I took tonight:

Here is her tank with the airstones that I don't even bother putting back under the gravel anymore cuz by the next day she has dug them up again:



Here is her basking spot at the top of the tank with the docks that now lead into the little nesting box I made today and her basking lamp:



the 2 docks side by side and there are 2 more underneath them because she is so heavy it takes that much floatation to support her:



Here are 2 pics of the broken egg shell I found 3 days ago (I think she broke it by trying to eat it after laying it). This egg is what brought me to this forum to begin with in search of answers for a female res suspected of having eggs. When I first saw it, these 2 pieces were one piece and I guess got ripped apart while in the tank. I fished them out and they got kind of dried up so they aren't too recognizable now. They are however still cylindrical, so what else could they be? And when I initially saw it in the tank, it looked exactly like some kind of an egg and so I logically deduced that she must have layed it.





Here is a pic the evening of the day I found the egg in the tank before I fished it out. It looks more egg-ish in this pic though it had also already been ripped a bit:




and a profile shot of Andy:



Should I be keeping a heat light on at night as well over the nesting box in order to encourage her to go there and make her more comfortable there?

[Ktulu]

So all she is doing now is going up on the docks, then she climbs over into the nesting box and kinda walks around in there for 30 seconds, walks back over onto the docks, and slides back into the water covered in dirt from the nesting box. So, basically, all this has accomplished is it has given her a way to track all the nesting box dirt into the water. So now I have to clean the tank. Oh, and also, while she is out in the nesting box, she is still continuing to try to escape the tank by clawing at the lid (female nesting behaviour). All of her behaviour seems to be pointing towards her having eggs to lay, but she won't lay them. She hasn't been eating or basking much over the past couple of days, though she was basking excessively a week or two ago (more female with eggs behaviour). At that time, she was spending about 12 hours per day up on her basking spot, basically from the time the lights went on in the morning to the time the lights went off at night, she would be basking the whole time straight through. Now all she does is go nuts all over the place flailing around. Any more thoughts? I need some help here. Oh and she apparently dragged her cuttlebone out of the water last night as I have found it in her nesting box this morning.

[marisa]

Andy sounds like a busy lady. (The cuttlebone was a nice touch.)

If you gently feel the area in front of the hind legs toward the stomach, can you feel any eggs (they'd feel lumpy, like grapes)?

That's the nesting box on the far right? They can be selective in where they choose to lay their eggs. It doesn't look very deep to me---I think the depth of the soil should be more like at least 3/4 the length of the shell.

If you're using a regular light to heat the nesting box, I wouldn't keep it on all night (unless she's in the box and looks like she might be settling there).

You don't say where you are. Are you in a warm climate? If so, and if the weather's warm, can you take her outside and let her dig around some bushes? Perhaps if she does have more eggs to lay, she's lay them there.

I wouldn't replace the Reptomin with romaine, making it the main food. Vary the diet.

[Ktulu]

Thank you, I'll check for eggs this evening. The nest is about 3" deep so you are right it should be deeper. Sadly, I am in Mississauga Ontario Canada and the weather right now would only be suitable for Polar Turtles .

[Ktulu]

OK I have felt in front of her hind legs, held her upright so her shell facesd me and she had her feet tucked in but I was still able to get one finger between her legs and her tummy. I pressed in gently on each side separately and pretty much felt nothing but lose skin, definitely no bumps that I could find. She is exhibiting the signs of a turtle wanting to lay as I described before, and I found that thing in the tank and it looked EXACTLY like an egg. OH ANDY! What else could this be? All day she hass been in and out of the nest box, never staying in there for longer than a few seconds each time, and it seems like she is always focused on the lid of the tank when she is out of the water. And when she is swimming, she is constantly checking out the glass walls of the tank as if she were looking for a way to get through them. All signs of her trying to get out any way possible. Also I have noticed her, just a little bit, kicking her hind legs and rubbing them on her backside around her bum. Kind of like when they use their front feet and legs to "wipe the crumbs off their face" when they are eating. Almost seems like there is something abound her back end making her feel discomfort. Does this not all seem like a female RES looking to lay eggs? I have also now realized that over the years that I have had her, I remember every once in a while seeing her digging around on the bottom of the tank in a way that was like she was digging a nest. In fact I actually remember seeing her doing it once with a friend of mine and I actualluy said to my friend that I( think she is digging a nest. But, she is only 3.5 years old and so I can't believe that she would have had this problem at even a younger age than she is now. I can't remember what time of year it was when I saw her digging around the bottom of the tank in the past but I wonder if this could be a Spring thing that is just more intense this year because she is around the age of becoming sexually mature. Anyone heard of this kind of thing? I know my pet rabbits have been acting a bit more amourasly towards eachother lately (thanfully they are fixed). Could there be a similar thing with turtles? Even as I type she is trying to push the lid up off the tank.

[steve]

Even if you can't feel them, she might still be carrying them. Have you tried a large container outside of the tank? I know how difficult this is... but they can be very picky.

[marisa]

It sounds possibly like she can't expell whatever it is she's got inside her. But if you notice her kicking her butt when she was even younger, part of me's wondering if she's not a bit constipated. Is she pooping at all?

Can you let her wander a bit in one room with a nesting box, a ramp for her to climb into it and a light over it?