General Care Discussion :: Ammonia and Nitrite levels

[scriabin]

So... what are tolerable levels of ammonia and nitrite in turtle water? I know for fish, anything over 0 ppm will have negative effects (and in the long run, that's what I'm going for because I want to keep some large fish in my turtle tank) - but the turtles themselves don't actually breathe the water, so they must be a good bit more tolerant, right? Does anybody know the numbers?

I finally got my hands on a water test kit and both my ammonia and Nitrite levels were quite high, despite changing most of the water pretty recently. I just hooked up a much better filter and used some ammonia/nitrite remover, and I'll check the levels again in the morning. In about three weeks I'll be moving them into a slightly larger tank and adding a second filter ... but in the meantime I don't want them in unhealthy conditions.

Any advice appreciated. Thanks!

Jonathan

[TheComputerGremlin]

Can you post the numbers that you got?

Since turtles don't breath the water like fish do, they are much hardier to higher levels. You should perform a 25% water change no more often than once per day to lower the levels. If you change too much water at once, you remove any beneficial bacteria produced by the filter.

What is your filter? You want to create a bacteria cycle in the tank to deal with the various levels. If you have a good filter, you shouldn't need more than one. How big is your future tank? What type of filter will that have? If your tank is between 40-120 gallons, a single Fluval FX5 should work quite well and create the bacteria cycle as needed.

[scriabin]

Ugh, I just tested again and I'm up to 2 ppm nitrite and 7 ppm ammonia - totally intolerable, right? I'll do a 25% water change right now and treat the water again.

Does anybody know specific numbers for tolerable levels for turtles? Again, I want to introduce fish sometime in the next year so ultimately my goal is 0 ppm - but in the meantime I want to keep the turtles healthy...

(To answer your question, they're in a temporary enclosure with about 18 gallons of water in it, and I'm running a zoomed canister turtle filter (rated for thirty gallons) AND a crappy little turtle-starter-kit filter. When we get back home they'll be in 30 gallons of water with the zoomed AND a a submersible whisper filter rated for 40 gallons. I know eventually I'll have to get a super-filter like the fluval fx5 but it will take me several months at least to raise the funds...)

[megcornell]

Well, two turtles in 18 gallons of water is simply too much for the bacteria to handle, so I don't think you're going to get the levels down much further if at all.
Given the conditions they are in, you should just keep up the water changes to help keep the water in habitable. I don't know the exact point where nitrites and ammonia becomes an issue, I think with turtles it is more of a sliding scale. But, you'll see signs of when the water is affecting them. They'll face issues like irritated eyes.

Another thing you can do before you upgrade the tank is to add more water to the current tank if you can.

[scriabin]

Thanks Meg, that's very helpful. I'll do regular water changes until I get them back home.

I had originally planned on adding more water to their current setup, but I'm using one of those acrylic turtle ramps and I'm paranoid about raising it to the point where they might climb out and fall.

[scriabin]

Again, Meg, thanks for the suggestion of adding more water - I realized I could change the position of the ramp and put the tank up against the wall so that even though they can climb high, there's nothing but wall waiting for them - I was able to add another 6 gallons.

[cprcheetah]

You can always make an above tank basking area for them. My hubby maid me one out of a clear rubbermaid container. Zeke loves it and that way he has full use of the water capacity in his tank.

[scriabin]

Heather that sounds interesting - do you have a picture?

[cprcheetah]

Heather that sounds interesting - do you have a picture?

Here are some pictures. We do have a lid on it otherwise Zeke would be out of there! LOL! Basically hubby took a large container and cut out a 'ramp' section then used heat to melt it enough to bend it down so it would be a 'ramp' out of the water. The container is big enough that Zeke can comfortably turn around and move around in it. We used sides on the ramp or Zeke would escape there too...he likes to try and escape. We use popcicle sticks so he can have something to grip on. I have to keep an eye on the water levels or he can't get up there so he always pretty much has a full tank of water These pictures are older which is why his shell doesn't look 100% it's looking MUCH MUCH Better now.

[mat012]

The ammonia remover is just changing ammonia from a toxic form to a nontoxic form. It basically changes the NH3 (ammonia) to NH4 (ammonium) and the test strip will not tell the difference. That is why you are not seeing a decrease - the test still "sees" the ammonium and registrers it as ammonia.

Personally, I would not use ammonia removers, but rather rely on larger water changes. Do a couple of large water changes (75%) to bring the levels down and then I think you could go up to 50% twice a week to weekly and be fine. Your filters dont have a large bio capacity so you will mainly be relying on water changes to keep your tank clean and your levels stable. This will be the routine until you get a larger tank and filters with more bio capacity. There's nothing wrong with your filters, they just mainly provide mechanical and chemical filtration - so you have to provide more water changes.

I also dont think I would worry about the levels for future fish yet either. Chances are your turtles will eat your fish, so getting the water right for them may be moot. They will also add to the bioload of the tank so you wouldnt want many in there (in fact with two turts - I wouldnt try to put any in the tank unless the turtles are very small or the fish are feeder fish). Test it out with a couple of rosy red minnows and see how the turtles do with them. I imagine with two turtles you wont be able to have fish there for long anyway.

Let us know how it goes...

[scriabin]

Well, the fish plan is for big fish that are known to have more success with res - a large pleco, chichlids, or possibly some full grown (6") silver dollars etc... I'm also considering allowing a guppy population to bread freely once I get my larger tank up and running, and let nature take its course. In any case, that's more of a long term project, right now I'm just trying to keep the turtles comfortable.

Good to know about the ammonia remover not showing up in the test results, thanks for pointing that out. I don't plan to rely on the remover, I just keep it around as water first aid in case of ammonia/nitrite spikes (primarily for a separate fish tank). I know it's no substitute for good filtration and water changes.

I'm aware keeping healthy fish with two turtles is quite an endeavor (since that means ammonia and nitrite have to hover at more or less a constant 0 ppm, and even a single turtle is essentially an ammonia factory) and I'll most likely need some super heavy duty filtration to pull it off - still, I know it's been done and I'd really like to do it...

[Bascomb]

Scri-ben -- Your tank needs to be larger. That should be 10 gallons per inch of turtle. Your filter needs to be larger with a greater gph. You will need to have a volume exchange of at least 5 time per hour. Please don't rely on a pet shop or some information that tells you that a filter is something larger than a normal fish tank. Fish people don't have a clue how much poo your turtle puts out. Stick to the 5 or greater water exchange per hour and you will be on the correct track. Your current chemical problems can only be solved by 50 per cent water replacement until you get a larger tank and filter. Turtles require a lot more water. b.

[scriabin]

Hey Bascomb - you might have missed part of the post - they're in a temporary enclosure for the next few weeks while I am away from home - they have a bigger tank with additional filtration back home.

I have a 150g tank in storage for them but need to find a larger apartment for myself before I can set it up.

[mat012]

I have fish in my tank with my turtle. In fact I am pushing it really with the number of fish that I have in the tank (70 gallon). But I love em. I only have one turtle too and he is still pretty small (about 3 inches or so). I wish I had waited and learned more about fish before I started buying community fish. A cichlid would be nice - even a pair if they wouldnt get too aggressive with the turtle.

It has been done, but it really depends on the turtles' temperament and with two of course you have increased your chances of having a fish eater! My danios and platies do really well. I have tried female bettas (eaten they are too slow and wear out too fast - I have heard this is true of Gouramis as well) and mollies. Mollies are too sickly in a community tank. I wouldnt recommend them. Havent tried the cichlids but would like to (if my Tuck ever eats the others!). Both the danios and platies are very hardy and can handle less than perfect water.

Plus when you set up your bigger tank you will have so much water it will be much easier to maintain it at good levels (the bad stuff takes longer to build up). Again I would like to hear how it goes. So far my turtle has been less than perseverant in getting my fish. I hope it lasts.

Melissa

[scriabin]

Thanks Melissa - its reassuring to know the more water I add, the better my readings will be.

On the fish front, I've heard that mean tempered RES will bite anything, but more docile personalities can be more communal. The general rule is, the fish have to be really big or really fast - small chichlids are both, as are large silver dollars, big chichlids are as big as an adult turtle, same with an adult pleco -though a mean turtle might still take a bite out of a pleco, since they are more sedentary fish.

Some folks dream of the ultimate reef salt water aquairum - I think for me it's the ultimate turtle/fish aquarium...

...although I'd still like to have a pet octopus some day...