Feeding and Nutrition :: Quote by a turtle biologist

[DavidY]

One of my contracts has been with a research firm made up of phd's as well and I agree with you 100%. They are extremely sure of themselves and overeager to use their "Doctor" titles whenever they can. They are smart people and have definitely paid for that title, but I don't think any human has a right to be that sure of themself when there is still so much that is unknown.

[SpotsMama]

You know, it seems to me that a person in a position such as that person is (or was) would be capable of changing things if they really felt strongly about something. He/she is active on a big turtle forum already, where lots of people are getting their guidance. He/she could work with whoever owns the site to revise the guidelines if he/she really wanted to - or if he/she could really support the position. Something like a major revision in guidelines on a big site would be very influential in the turtle community. I don't see why a person with serious intent wouldn't take that approach instead of throwing out disparaging remarks in a rather insulting way. I'm inclined to think that Steve is right - he/she was feeling frustrated with so many people that overfeed their turtles and was ventilating - but it sure came out badly (IMO).

(Sometimes I wish we had a third gender to choose from - when we don't know if it's a he or a she. "It" just doesn't work sometimes!)

[scripta_elegans]

I think acedemic snobbery is one of the funniest things ever because it is so ridiculous. You have a culture of smart people who work hard ensure that only other smart people, with the same level and type of education as they have, will be able to understand what the hell they are saying about their findings. They are a culture of exclusion rather than inclusion, which to me seems to be in direct opposition to their educational vocation. I started off as a history grad student a few years ago, and I had to reaccess my goals pretty fast. I tend to have trouble with giggling at inappropriate times, and witnessing the pomposity of some of the revered academians, it about killed me to stay quiet. Anyway, to make a long story short, (too late), my conclusion is to read all you can, experience all you can, and listen to all you can, then form your own opinion from what you have learned.

[DavidY]

Ha ha, I would've loved to sit in on one of your meetings! I would've been chuckling right along with you. I can't stand that kind of arrogance either. And, SpotsMama, those guys usually won't lift a finger to better anything unless they can get a) money, b) glory or c) power/prominence.

(I like to use "they" or "them" for gender neutral 3rd party references.)

[industrial_girl_2000]

I'm sorry, but I can't agree with feeding babies once every 2-3 days. Here's why: even though the babies may not find food everyday when they are in nature, there are other factors to be considered:

1.) Stress due to captivity - As much as we like to think we have replicated everything a turtle needs in their life, for many turtles they will have some stress due to captivity.

2.) Lack of hibernation in captivity - our turtles are awake year-round. This is technically "not natural" either. Therefore, their nutritional req'ts are much different than a turtle in nature since they are in hibernation up to 6 months out of year.

I won't overfeed my turtle (who I have had for 17 yrs & she was immaculately healthy at her 6" length when I bought her so God-only-knows how old she really is!), but I will continue to feed her pellets every 2 days as I have been (occasionally every 3 days) & continue to give her romaine daily since in the wild, she would be foraging & eating plants daily anyway.

And if this guy thinks that Sheba is in any way unhealthy, he is more than welcome to come visit me at my house & see for himself! 17 yrs under my care has made her marvelously responsive to me & gorgeous. And if that wasn't proof enough, I also have had my aquatic frog for almost 7 yrs now (!). Fed daily, and doing great!

[reptilegrrl]

I've read some info on Eastern (not Northern) Painted Turtles, which concluded that EPTs don't freeze solid---it would kill them.

Feeding schedules, like using UVB lights as an example, depend to some extent on the philosophy of the keeper and what has worked for them. I know some experienced keepers who wouldn't take issue with what was written. I think Batagur makes some valid points.

Do youi really think that UVB depends on the philosophy of the keeper? I've never heard of a vet who agrees- they all say it's a necessity.

[steve]

I think its an issue of how much and what is the source (fluorescent, MVB, Sunlight), not whether if it is a necessity.

[DavidY]

There are some reptiles where the need for UVB lighting is questionable, and there are other species where it's an absolute necessity. The amount of UVB lighting required is also debatable. Some feel that more is always better since there are no artificial lights in the pet hobby that come close to natural sunlight. I think most would agree however that wild reptiles do not spend anywhere close to 12 hours a day under full strength sunlight either. Also, many keepers supplement with vitamin D3 (what animals naturally produce during exposure to UVB) and believe that can reduce the need for UVB lighting.

[marisa]

reptilegrrl, perhaps philosophy is not the best word to use. I don't think UVB is in dispute, I said UVB lights. One some other forums, some people don't think lights are necessary.

[Andrew7769]

yea my eastern painted turtles do not have UVb and they are healthier than my RES who has white spots on his shell and he does have UVB...not to offend anyone on this forums but no one even here really knows completely its true one way or the other.

[reptilegrrl]

yea my eastern painted turtles do not have UVb and they are healthier than my RES who has white spots on his shell and he does have UVB...not to offend anyone on this forums but no one even here really knows completely its true one way or the other.

Actually, Andrew, you are mistaken: veterinarians absolutely know that turtles need full-spectrum UV lighting (whether from sun or from an artificial light), or they will sicken, be deformed, and probably die.

I suspect that your RES has an inferior light, and that your painted turtles will show some illness at some point.

It is just not correct to say that "no on even here really knows" if turtles need UV, because yes, we really do know.

[reptilegrrl]

There are some reptiles where the need for UVB lighting is questionable, and there are other species where it's an absolute necessity. The amount of UVB lighting required is also debatable. Some feel that more is always better since there are no artificial lights in the pet hobby that come close to natural sunlight. I think most would agree however that wild reptiles do not spend anywhere close to 12 hours a day under full strength sunlight either. Also, many keepers supplement with vitamin D3 (what animals naturally produce during exposure to UVB) and believe that can reduce the need for UVB lighting.

Hi David, I don't think we know each other. My background is of more than ten years in reptile rescue.

Yes, I know that not all reptile species need exposure to UV, such as nocturnal species who hide during the day. But we're talking about RES here, not other reptiles.

Supplementing with Vitamnin D3, in the case of turtles, is just not enough. I have seen some horrible cases of turtles who were kept without UV and were fed Vitamin D3: they were terribly deformed. They simply cannot assimilate it very well. Also, feeding too much VitD3 (in an attempt to overcome that) can lead to VitD toxicity, which does not happen with naturally synthesized VitD.

VitD is not the only reason that our turtles need UV: it's just the most easily explained one. There are factors at work that we still don't understand.

[DavidY]

Hmm, very good points, Reptilegrrl. You have first hand experience with turtles who have been raised w/o UV lighting and supplemented with D3, and that's good enough for me. I am aware of the toxicity of ingesting vitamin D as opposed to synthesizing it naturally through absorption of sunlight (UV), similar to taking vitamin A versus eating foods hight in beta-carotene.

Personally, I am a big fan of natural whole health type solutions as opposed to relying solely on chemical and artificial methods. I use live plants in almost all my animal setups (both aquatic and terrestrial) as a means of natural filtration. I supplement with power filters as necessary (like with my RES tank ). I am also a firm believer in providing UVB lighting even with reptiles that are still questionable as to whether they need it or not (ie monitor lizards).

I was pointing out in my last post what might be considered differing "philosophies" regarding the amount of UV light required. You're right that there is still a lot that is not fully understood about UV requirements among different species. It's always better to be safe than sorry.

[industrial_girl_2000]

yea my eastern painted turtles do not have UVb and they are healthier than my RES who has white spots on his shell and he does have UVB...not to offend anyone on this forums but no one even here really knows completely its true one way or the other.

Andrew, just wondering how long you have had your turtles? Reason why I ask is because sometimes shell issues can take up to 10 yrs to develop (!). Also, it depends on how they were cared for before you got them. Also, different species have different light requirements. If you raised 2 different RES's from the same clutch as hatchlings, one with UVB & one without, then you might see some different results. Comparing the Painteds to the RES's isn't really a fair comparison until you take out all the other variables in the experiment.

Not trying to rip on you or anything, just trying to help in the discussion about the UVB lighting.

[Andrew7769]

yep no problem well i have had them for over 3 years and my RES for about 2? my painters eat everything bask for hours shed about 5x the amount my RES does and shells are never really white or bad for that long, while i def wont keep my turts for 10years without UVB just to prove a point i believe that waiting another few months to save up some money for a bulb will not harm them, saying this i am actually designing a turtle "play den" made of wood with a easy access pool for outside during nice days(just basicly a few 2x4s nailed to a frame and some shaded rocks and a shaded pool) i have met people that have raised their turts on no UVB and they are fine, and yet i think this question is like smoking, yes not evryone dies form lung cancer from doing it but you are taking a risk by doing it, and also some non-smokers get lung cancer, i think that it depends on the turtle and you had better be safe then sorry in regards to UVB.(btw my painters were hatching rescues)

P.S. please keep in mind that i used the phrase "i think" a lot in this post so i urge that you buy the bulb if you have the money like i said its better to be safe then sorry/