Equipment Review and Discussion :: Filter without an electric pump?

[taanddean]

Is there such a thing? I'm going traveling in a motor home with my "herd"--including a RES. Would be great if I could build a filter without a need for electricity. Suction? Gravity pull? Has anybody seen this done? Is it possible?

I have a 40 gallon Rubbermaid stock tank, am building a one foot wide basking/plant/rock area across the front of the tank. The basking area is a 'box' about 3" deep, full of dirt, planted to grass and other plants. I have tentative plans for a DIY canister filter built from a (plastic) coffee can, floss, and carbon. Is that too small? Where can I get carbon except WalMart in the fish supplies, anyway? That stuff floats out of the filter and doesn't seem to work well. The tank is going to have plywood across the back, plexiglass on 3 sides from the top of the tank to the 'roof', and a plexiglass roof with airholes. Another roof that I can change to, made of screen--to use in summer.

Comments? What can I use on the plywood to protect it? Is there a turtle-safe paint? Plastic? Formica?

I have absolutely NO understanding of biological media. I've read about a bacterial growth that removes the need for ever (?) cleaning a tank. Really?? Someone explain this part to me, please? I'm clueless!

We're starting on this project blind in a lot of ways--and would much appreciate guidance.

Thanks!!

[steve]

I can't think of anything that would be effective for that water footprint. You might be able to utilize the drain on the stock tank for more frequent water changes. 40 gallons is not much water, so if your DIY filter can handle a large load of media then you might be OK. Regular water testing might be a good idea. The plywood is completely out of contact of the water? If so, it should be OK but you might want to consider something like marine paint.

Here is a filtration overview: http://www.redearslider.com/filtration.html

You will need less frequent water changes and filter cleanings but you still have to do it. There will always be an accumulation of waste even if you can't see or test for it.

[VeipaCray]

Bio Filtration in a nutshell lesson....

turtles and fish produce waste. Waste is high in ammonia. Ammonia is toxic even at low concentrations to aquatic life.
There's a few strains of naturally occurring nitrifying bacteria that feeds on ammonia. The bacteria consume the ammonia and their waste is nitrite. Nitrite is still toxic to aquatic life... but less toxic than ammonia. Luckily there's yet another few strains of naturally occurring nitrifying bacteria that consume nitrite as a food source and produce nitrate as waste. Nitrate is much much less toxic than nitrite. Without having a HUGE (impractically huge) filtration setup consisting of many plants and algae... there isn't any way to remove nitrate from the aquarium. So we need on occasion to swap out water with high nitrate concentration with water containing less nitrates (clean tap water) to keep the nitrate levels in check. Hence the need for a monthly water change.

If you read up on the nitrogen cycle you'll get a much more scientific explanation than what I just mentioned.

Bio media is very simple.... it's a super porous material (usually ceramic) in the form of rings or nuggets that provides surface area for the nitrifying bacteria to reproduce and colonize. IE a bacteria home.

You'll hear about a tank that is "cycled". What this means is the bacteria has reproduced to a large enough population to consume their food source. So if you were to measure ammonia and nitrite levels in a tank, they would be 0 and stay there. What happens with a new tank is the ammonia spikes as the turtles or fish produce waste. The spike begins to decline as the bacteria reproduce. When the measurable ammonia levels drop, the nitrite levels (from the second type of bacteria) begin to climb... then spike.... then eventually go to 0 as the second bacteria have reproduced to where they can eat all of the nitrite. Then nitrates climb... and the water change. And slowly nitrates climb again... and another water change and over and over and over. This is the nitrogen cycle. A cycled tank is considered a mature tank safe for fish (not safe from hungry turtles) where ammonia and nitrite remain at 0.

Hopefully my babbling made sense. On to your filter.

I read this post earlier today and spent the day thinking about this. I came up with something....
There's a new filter on the market available at most chain pet stores called the API Nexx. We turtle keepers on this forum generally hate this filter for it's design. HOWEVER for you, it might be perfect. It's not the biggest filter and it doesn't hold much media... but you only have a 40 gallon tank.

The unique (one of the parts we hate that you may love) feature of this filter is an external pump. The pump for the api nexx is IN the aquarium external to the filter body. Most canisters have an electric pump built into the canister body.
That means you should be able to replace this external pump with any other external pump that has similar GPH flow characteristics and plumb your new pump to your API nexx filter body.

I don't know of any non-electrical water pumps.... but I do know of solar based pond pumps. What if you got a solar based pond pump, put the tiny solar panel outside a window or on the roof, and powered your water pump via solar power. You could then use the solar pump to feed the API Nexx canister filter. Many of the solar pond pumps are 12v DC. If you're traveling in a motor home... I bet you know what else is 12V DC. Run the pump off solar power when you can. When you can't you can plug the thing into your car's electrical system.

The pumps and panels appear to range in price from $10 to $yikes, but here's a 5W, 12V DC pump + panel for $66

http://www.ebay.com/itm/5-Watts-Solar-P ... 560wt_1398

Ideally, you'd want to push your water volume through the canister about 3x per hour... so 40x3 would be 120 gallons per hour. However in your case none of this is really ideal... so make do with what you can. The bigger the pump the better... but the $66 pump linked is 100GPH.... probably close enough. You'll probably have to do some kind of backyard engineering to adapt the different hose sizes, but that shouldn't be anything a trip to lowes or home depot couldn't handle.

[taanddean]

Wow! What an abundance of information!! Thanks!

Now let's see if I understand. Amonia is bad and produces nititrites. Nitrites are not as bad, and produce nitrates. Nitrates are good and can be encouraged with a type of bio-media. Nitrates still have to be cleared out now and then--hence a water change.

You said monthly. I'm changing Yertle's water weekly because it starts to smell like a sewer if I don't. That would be caused by the nitrites? So I need to encourage the nitrates.

Have I got it right so far? (I hope!)

Okay, nitrates are encouraged by bio-media, and biomedia is a super porous material-usually ceramic. So I just go to the local ceramic shop and buy an unglazed 'thing' to put in the tank? In the filter? Where else do I get bio-media? A monthly water change would be nice instead of weekly! Would chlorinated water be better than not chlorinated? I have access to either well water or city tap water.

You mentioned plants. Would plants set in the water (or trailing into the water, but planted on his basking area) help? It appears that it would take MANY to replace the bio-media, but would some help? What kinds are best? I heard once about a variety of water hyacinth that farmers use to clean oil and gas well pollutants from ponds, but it grows so fast that it takes over and suffocates the pond. Is this the same variety of water hyacinth that turtles can safely eat? That would be nice---one plant performs double duty.

A solar pump--an elegant solution that I hadn't thought of. You're brilliant! And if I can run it off the battery of the motor home, that's a nice back-up. (Bet I work the heaters into that scenario, too.) I have a generator, too--if all other power sources fail, but it's loud and smelly.

Do I need to worry about using different water from different towns while I travel? I had wondered if I need to go to something generic, like WalMart bottled water.

Tho he doesn't know it, Yertle appreciates your input; and I reeeeeally do, too!!

[VeipaCray]

Well the ammonia doesn't produce nitrities and so on..... the bacteria that eats the ammonia produces nitrites as a waste. The bacteria that eats nitrites produces nitrates as a waste.

The smell is usually caused by organic compounds in the water. Chemical (activated carbon) and mechanical (sponges) in the filtration system would remove that.

Chlorine evaporates. If you're source water has chlorine.... it will evaporate out of the water by itself. Most water municipals use chloramine.... it's chlorine bound to ammonia and it doesn't evaporate. The best way to remove chloramine is to run the water through a filter that contains activated carbon. If you go the filter route I mentioned.... the filter media will have carbon and it will take care of any chloramine removal. Else... if you're looking for something non-powered to do it... something like a britta filter would do it.... you know the tap water into the pitcher and it trickles through a carbon filter. Same concept.

Any plants you put in the water will more than likely become food for The few plants you would be able to grow with your turtle wouldn't make a noticeable difference in the nitrate levels, but they sure do look nice. There's a section of this forum dedicated to what plants are safe for the turtle to eat.

Walmart bottled water isn't a bad idea... however distilled or RO water would be way too soft. Your best bet would be bottled nursery water. OR...get one of those zero-water or britta pitchers. Filter the water yourself prior to adding it to the turtle setup.

Cheers!

[taanddean]

AHA! Now I got it! I left the part about the bacteria.

I have filter material and carbon in the filter. Maybe the filter's too small. How often do I change the carbon? Is there something better than what I get at WalMart? Longer lasting?

The greeen cast in the water is algae? Should I worry, or will upgrading the filter fix that too?

Sounds like a britta filter is in my future--fixes two or three problems! Why is soft water bad? What about unusually hard?

I'll look at the plants again....

'Preciate it!

[VeipaCray]

Carbon is tricky.... there's no easy way to tell when it's exhausted and it really depends on how much gunk is in your water. I've seen reports that say carbon lasts a few days and others that say it lasts a few months. Personally, I change my carbon monthly. Carbon is carbon... walmart brand, petstore brand... again this is a case of cheapest is usually best. I buy my carbon from bulk reef supply (online website) because it is sold in bulk and is cheaper.

Purigen by Seachem is a synthetic resin that acts much the same way carbon does. It lasts longer and can be cleaned. However, it doesn't remove chloramine from the water like carbon does. In your situation...carbon is probably your best bet.

Green in water is usually algae. Here's the thread on algae... viewtopic.php?f=6&t=28813

Really soft water like RO water is bad for 2 reasons. 1. It won't maintain a stable PH. 2. it's semi-corrosive. It will suck minerals and salts out of various things... not healthy for your turtle.

[taanddean]

Along the same lines----what about a chemical algae control? I got some Tetra Algae Control--active ingrediants Poly [Oxyethylene (Diomethylimino) Ethylene (Diomethylimino) Ethylene Dichloride] of 5.4%. (I'm so glad I don't have to pronounce that! I took the statement "If it's safe for fish, it's probably safe for turtles." to heart.

I thought, tho, that I'd check in with you and see if you had comments before I used it.

How long can he be off his feed before I worry? I got up this morning to find an extremely green tank and a very lethargic turtle. He had eaten some of his dinner from last night, refused breakfast this morning, and did take a treat--bloodworm--and 4 sticks of Reptamin sticks this afternoon. Refused dinner. Stress from the algae growth? I emptied and DRIED the tank, then refilled it, sans rocks. He's normally active. He sniffs at food, but swims away. Also, stools look good. 3 today and all normal.

Should I worry? He moves into his new tank tomorrow--I'm nervous about moving him if he's off his game anyway.

Comments?

Thanks!!--As always!

[steve]

When dealing with products, there are few ideas we go for... "If it's safe for fish, it's probably safe for turtles" is one, "Turtle specific products are usually junk", "Don't always believe what the person selling you the turtle is saying" and "The fewer the chemicals used, the better".

Chemical algae treatments do work and quickly. How safe they are short/long term is anyone's guess. You can either use an UV sterilizer or practice algae control. If there is a specific diet/eating problem, you might want to start a new thread so we can sort through what's going on.

[taanddean]

Another 'Aha!' moment. So chemical algae control seems to be a 'occasional and last-resort' fix while I continue to try to find/fix the underlying problem. Safe for fish=safe for turtles. Good to know.

If he's not eating by morning, I'll start the new thread.

Thanks!

[steve]

Regarding the "If it's safe for fish, it's probably safe for turtles" statement, this is more important... "The fewer the chemicals used, the better".

[taanddean]

Got it--will avoid whenever possible. Sounds like a water change is the better solution and return the chemicals to the store.

Thanks again----

[VeipaCray]

Try adding some granular ferric oxide in a media bag to your filter. GFO absorbs phosphates from the water. Phosphates are the primary food source for algae. Gfo is sold in bulk generic or by a few name brands one of which being phosban. Any fish store that deals in saltwater will have it.

It's not a chemical, it's a filter media.

[taanddean]

I like 'not chemical'!

We switched to chlorinated tap water--that seems to be helping. Also, took out all the rocks and let them dry before I put them back--thought they might be carrying algae too. Seem to be making headway...

I'll see if I can find GFO around town--thanks!!