General Care Discussion :: NEW THEORY ON BITING FEMALE

[LKitsch]

Please See Other Thread on Fighting Females:

In my efforts to adopt out the aggressive female, I spoke to two people at the CA Tortoise & Turtle Club. They said that I should bring them the victim---that is, the now wounded turtle who was the target of the biting female. As I mentioned earlier, the biter is not bothering the other two turtles in the pond, both of which are smaller than the victim.

Their reason---there may be something wrong with her, even something I could not notice. Turtles, like a lot of wild animals in groups, will try to kill off the weaker members of the group. There could be many reasons---they literally smell blood (and RES's are carnivorous, as we know) or they perceive them as a threat to the health of the community.

It may explain why the dominant biting female gets along fine with the other two. What do you folks think of that theory?

[marisa]

Sounds plausible to me (the other side of what I was thinking in the other thread) as well. Animals will pick on those that they preceive as weaker or different in some way. As a thought, though---is only one turtle the aggressor or are the others picking on the one turtle as well? If the 3 of them get along and only the one turtle is being the aggressor, then I would wonder. I had several painteds together for a while, and one was always by himself, almost as if ostracized, and I begain to sense that some bullying was going on. It was the victim that was ultimately taken out in this case.

I know you said you had them in an indoor pond, but how big are they and how big is the pond (sorry, I've forgotten it if you've already mentioned it).

[LKitsch]

Marissa,

Only one turtle is the aggressor and only one turtle is her victim. The other turtles don't bother the victim, and the aggressor doesn't bother the others.

The hole in the theory that she is attacking the weakling is that the other turtles are more recent rescues and have shell problems, while both the aggressor and the victim have much healthier shells. All of them are fine otherwise.

It raises the issue that perhaps the aggressor sees the victim as the only viable threat because of her close proximity in size, although if she was a threat, wouldn't she be less passive and fight back? The whole thing is weird.

The pond is 200 gallons. The turtles are as follows: three are 8-9 inches (including the aggressor and victim); one is younger and about 6 inches.

Thanks!

[marisa]

These sizes are all the shell lengths without the curves? Although a 200-gallon pond sounds big, it doesn't sound like it's big enough for the size turtles you have...The two turtles used to get along when they were smaller (and before the others were introduced to the pond)?

I honestly don't know what to tell you. I can't begin to determine the motives of either turtle. The only thing that's apparent is that they're big turtles in a pond that's too small for them, but even with increasing the space they're in who knows if that would stop the fighting... Did you mention their size and the space they're in to the CTTC people?

[LKitsch]

Yes, they are the shell lengths without curves. I think the 200 gallon pond may have been too small for 4 full grown females (well, 3 full grown and 1 well on her way).

When the 2 turtles were together, they were in a much smaller enclosure---a 100 gallon tank, which was way too small. So, I went to the 200 gallon pond over a year ago, and added the other 2 a month later. But, again, this behavior did not pop up until a couple of weeks ago.

On advice of the CTTC folks, one of which was a wildlife biologist (so you'd think that she oughta know!), I removed the victim and brought her over to the local chapter's rescue person, along with a membership check and donation---they really do important work. She has a huge yard and lots of room and pool space (she also had over a hundred hatchlings confiscated from Chinatown).

She says there is a big trend toward back yard ponds and they are having good luck adopting the RES's out---let's face it, we all know they are a helluva lot more interesting than koi!

Anyway, when I came home, I noticed the bad girl was going after the next pond mate in size! As if she knew I had given away the other one! (Since I had removed her a couple of days earlier and put her in a tub, but the aggressor had not been bothering the others until that point)

The difference was that this time her target was a little different---she fought back and could swim away faster. I have noticed that the bad girl has backed off a bit from her aggression, perhaps for obvious reasons. I will monitor the situation and watch for bite marks on the other two females.

If it persists, this time SHE gets voted off the island and I'll bring the other one back home. I'm hoping that the less crowded situation will also mitigate things.

BTW, the CTTC person suggested that I simulate winter conditions and gradually lower the water temperature and cut back the time the lights are on in the fall and winter and crank them back up in the summer. They probably won't hibernate, but they will slow down a lot and that will calm things down. What do you think of that?

Thanks for all your advice!

[steve]

Cooler temperatures should reduce activity, though I think personality has a lot to do with it. I hope it all works out!

[CountryGirl68]

My vet recommended that during the winter months (in colder climates) the water temp can be set to between 60 and 70 degrees. He recommended this because during the colder months, turtles will slow down a bit and even eat less. The change in temp will help give their digestive system a rest.

[marisa]

It really doesn't surprise me that the aggressive one started picking on a new turtle...Even though the new victim is fighting back, it's still causing the turtle stress. Space (lack of) is definitely an issue.

I think stimulating the cooler months is good, although I wonder how much it will slow down an aggressive turtle.

[LKitsch]

Well, since my last post (one day), things have been peaceful. I have been watching them and have not seen any aggression after Sunday afternoon---could it be that like many other animals in groups, when an aggressor gets "push back" from the others, they back off and avoid testing their limits, as long as the pecking order is understood by all?

No bite marks on either one of them, so things seem peaceful enough to let well enough alone for now, though I will continue to monitor the situation. If the sustained aggression returns (an ocassional spat is OK, I think, as long as nobody is injured), I will deal with it.

I guess this is no surprise, but the turtles with the most "personality" are usually the ones that have this problem. That was the case when I kept males---the fun ones were aggressive and the boring ones were not.

Is my pond too small? 200 gallons with three females---two at 9" and one at 5".