Urgent Care :: Rammy my turtle is sick I think, please help me diagnose him

[mcghee.kevin]

Fisrt off heres the prereq questsions answered

How big is your turtle? --- 6 Inches long
How long have you had it? ---10 years in the family

What is the water temperature? --- currently 82 cause I read it should be there if hes sick.

Did you use a thermometer? Using one of those stuck on ones on the tank
Are you using a water heater? Yes
How much water is in there? 10 gallons
Are you using a water conditioner? Yes Declorinator
Are you using any filtration? yes Fluval 105 Cansiter filter

What is the basking temperature? Unknown.
Is there a basking light? Yes
Is there a basking platform that is easy to climb on? Yes
What kind is it or what is it made out of? River rocks piled into a beach to the side.
Is there a UVB light? Yes

What have you been trying to feed it? Floating Food Sticks
When was the last time your turtle ate? A few sticks last night.

How big is the tank/pond/enclosure? 30x12x18
Is the tank near a window? About 15 feet away
Is the tank in a room with a lot of activity? Yes living room

Have you read the Basic Care section? Yes
Have you searched the forums for similar situations? Yes

Is there any other unusual activity/symptoms? See details below


Ok I've been searching asking questsions in other forums but seem to find this one is better!!, time to make one and hopefully find out whats wrong with rammy. His symptoms are changing but heres whats been going on over the past few months.

I inhereted my turtles from my dad, two RES in a single 40 gallon tank. I have since separated them into two seprate tanks. Rammy is the smaller male whoe is sick. Ever since I put river rocks in his tank he started digging and pushing around the rocks, and a decorative skull for fun, this started about a month ago, in which he broke some claws off which were bleeding. Following the recomendations from this site I have kept his tank clean, cleaning it twice a week. but in the meantime other thinshs have happened, for a few days till I cleaned his tank he was rubbing his eyes, not any more, he is eating less, has sparatic dormancy periods where he barely moves but then at night when his lights are off he starts moving around. And while cleaning his tank Ive noticed he doesnt seem to shed anymore, perhaps at 6-7 inches he's fully grown (Our familys had them for over 10 years)?

What scares me is his shell. Ive noticed over the past month some white spots. Looking at them up close they appear to be spots that have rubbed through the shell to bone? See the pictures below. He also has brown patched around the areas of the white spots on the one side but on the other he has just brown spots, perhaps this is him shedding and Im not noticing the shell when Im cleaning the rocks?

The third concern is the fact I came home one day and he had a white film over the front half of his shell, very slimy and not there in the morning when I went to work. I wiped it off and it hasent returned. I have just finished cleaning his tank. I have scrubbed it and disinfected it, chennged the filter medium except the bio-mass stuff for the bacteria, cleaned and sterilized his rocks and toys and put less water in the tank, added some more rock and made a beach for him to get dried out on more or less to bask. I have added de clorinator to the water and put a Dr. Turtle sulfa block in there as well. Before returning him to the water I lghtly scrobbed ever inch of shell with a very soft tooth brush and salt water bath mixture I found on here as a precation.

I guess What I want to know is looking at the pictures, Does he look like he has a problem with his shell, is it shell rot starting, (ie the white spots which are not soft or smelly,) of has he just worn spots through his shell by pushing his toy around? What about the brown spots. etc

Thank you for reading this and any imput would be appreciated, no matter how small.














One thing to note, I have searched and phoned, there is no Herp Vet Near men, the closest one would probably kill the turtle just going to see him its so far away,

[megcornell]

Usually shell rot has a very particular odor so I don't think that is the problem. Could you rub them off with a gentle scrub?
It doesn't look like the spot is very deep, I'd think it's pretty superficial which leads me to think its a fungus or discoloration from some sort of abrasion.
If it's a fungus you can buy a sulfa dip- they are more concentrated than the sulfa turtle blocks and would be better at fighting the infection.
I think his environment might be a big contributing factor here. Water cleanliness is very important for turtle health and in a tank that small it's very tough to keep things clean. I realize you just got these turtles so it's difficult to upgrade so quickly, but once he has more water I think you'll see the shell problems starting to resolve. Until then, make sure he is basking, and try the sulfa dip.

Also-- how are the turtles diets? A balanced diet is important. Be sure that you're feeding veggies along with the pellets. At your turtles sizes they should be getting pellets every other day and veggies every day.
Here's a link to good vegetables to feed:
http://www.redearslider.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5

[mcghee.kevin]

heh, I was just asking that in the food section. No they dont come off with a gentle scrub and the shel does not smell at all, Ive scrubbed his shell gently with a tooth brush and an aquarium salt soulution as recommended by another turtle owner incase fungus was a problem (the white film I mentioned) and they did not come off, looked closley and it really looks like abrasion marks which make sense since he rubs everything in his tank moving things around up till about a week ago and became sedentary so I suspsected a fungus, cleaned him, the tank and put a DR turtle in there. It looks like abrasion, not rot, the only thing that makes me think its a fungus or somthing is the brown spots, and the white film he had that one day... but it never returened.

As for the tank, its super clean, I clean it regularly, once a week, so it never really gets dirty, not like it used to be when my parents had them. He and his tank are as clean as its ever been, and while its a small enclosure yoy have to understand to him its huge as he spent many years with the other turtle in a 40 gallon (48x12x19) tank with a divider in the middle, so he can actually swim in this one.

As for diet hes always been fed pellets, every day. As for basking hes not been basking much at all lately, he went up there for about 5 minutes or less today, thats the most Ive seen, he seems to perfer climbing on his skull so the top of his shell is out of the water under the UBA.UVB canopy light more. but not much heat from that as far as I know?

[Bascomb]

mcghee.kevin -- 10 gallons for a 6'' turtle is not enough. 105 fluval is not big enough filter. b

[mcghee.kevin]

I'm well aware that neither is desirable but they are far better than what he had before and he certainly has enjoyed his new home. He has more room to actually swim, and the filter is rated for 25 gallons twice the water thats in there which I have read is what you want, twice the filtering power of the actual water in the tank. He will get a better home when I can afford it but for now it will do. I am keeping an eye out for a 90-100 gallon tank in the classified section of the paper to put my 8 inch female RES in so he can have the 45 gallon tank she is in, which yes, is still not enough but it will do till I can find a bigger one for him.

What I need to know is if he is sick, and with no Herp vet anywhere near me its people on the forum here that can help him.

[SpotsMama]

My goodness - you have a number of issues don't you. Actually, I'm surprised your turtles look as good as they do considering that they were living in a poor habitat for so long.

On the broken toenails - if the wounds haven't completely healed yet, you can put a little neosporin or triple antibiotic ointment on them, then keep the turtle dry for around 30 minutes so the medicine can work. Repeat this a couple of times a day until the wounds are healed.

On the shell, my guess is there's a pretty good fungus infection going. That would not be surprising in a turtle that has lived in a poor habitat without good light and opportunities to bask and dry out. You see something like the brown areas on normal scutes as they loosen and get ready to shed, when air or water gets trapped underneath the loosened scute. Some of the pictures are a little blurry so it's hard to tell, but it could be that in the case of your turtle(s) the top layer of scute loosened but never fell off, so that a fugus infection was able to get a foothold in the trapped water. Where the white is could be places where the top layer of shell has worn away or been eaten away by the fungus so the white shows through.

Is the bottom picture of a different turtle than the ones above? Maybe it's just the photo, but it looks that turtle really needs to shed those scutes - they seem to be piled up very thick.

A fungus infection will slowly eat away at a shell until eventually it breaks through to the bone underneath, which can allow a very serious infection to get established. Most likely though, that's not what you're seeing in the white areas on your turtle(s) shell. Unless you can see deep pits or lesions that we can't see in the photo then the infection is probably still superficial.

It's essential that the turtles get an opportunity to bask under good light and dry out for hours every day in order to restore the shell(s) to health. Diet is important too.

A much more effective medication for the infected areas is a cream available by prescription called silver sulfadiazine (SSD) or Sulfadine. Siince the infected areas are large, that's what I think you should get. You should be able to get it from a vet even if the vet isn't a herp specialist. Every evening until the white goes away, take the turtles out and wash their shells gently with a 50%/50% solution of Hibiclense, which is a hand soap for people that you can get at places like Walgreens. Be careful not to get any on the turtles' heads or eyes. They'll be slippery when you do this, so be careful that they don't wiggle out of your hands and fall. Rinse them thoroughly then let them dry off for about 30 minutes. When they are completely dry, rub the SSD cream on the infected areas, then let the turtles sleep overnight in dry dock (someplace outside the tank). When I've had to dry dock Spot, I put him in a big rubbermaid tub (cost about $16 at Lowes) with some towels on the bottom to make it soft, then I put the lid on to keep him safe. There are holes in the tub so he can get air. In the morning you can put your turtles back in the water but make sure they get to bask during the day under good UVB light.

With time, good light, basking, clean water and good diet the scutes that need to shed will go ahead and come off. In addition to light and basking, something that's supposed to help scutes to shed is food rich in vitamin E. Here are some foods that you can give your turtle as treats that may help:

Tomato
Sweet potato
Turnip greens
Blueberries
Apple skin

These foods are rich in vitamin e but unfortunately are otherwise not good for turtles:

Broccoli
Spinach

[mcghee.kevin]

Well as for the toenails, when I had him out to clean his tank last night they were healed up and growing back so I dont think thats a problem. I havent found any shell in his tank in any of the cleans since hes been in there seprarated from the other turtle, I assumed that it was because he was fully grown and wasent shedding anymore but I guess im wrong.

The white spots really do look like they are just areas hes worn through from rubbing and pushing his skull toy around the tank.

Yup thats the same turtle, but what can I do to make him shed the scutes? I guess I cant manually remove them?

He has a place to bask, but hes not going up there, I dont know why, he used to bask all the time when i first got the basking light in there for him. Do I forcebly take him out of the tank and put him under a light to bask?

If the white is just shell worn to the bone will putting cream cause sheel to grow back.. ie, if its an infection they will go away but if they are from abraision in the tank then they are permanent.

What does the SSD medication cost.... it dont have much money, hence the tank thats too small problem....

[megcornell]

Even full grown turtles will shed, but not as frequently as growing juveniles and young adult turtles. You can't make him shed- only proper diet and lighting will do that. Physically pulling the scutes off is not only painful to the turtle but it will cause shell damage and can lead to infections.
Is it possible the turtle can't climb on to the basking area? Have you changed anything about it? You can "dry dock" a turtle, where you put him in a box with the basking lights- this is usually recommended after certain treatments. I'd try to find the reason your turtle isn't basking though.
The white spots should go away with a few good sheds. Every layer of scute that sheds should reduce the damage some-- it may never fully correct itself but it will get better in appearance with time.
As for the medication cost, I'm not sure on that, it depends on the vet. Your best bet is to call around and compare.

[mcghee.kevin]

Well hes gone up there but only for a minute or two. I have changed it by making it easier to get up there but not to much, I did make the water deeper and the rockers higher so perhaps hes too close to the light now and its too hot. I certainly dont want him to die so I hope the medication doesnt cost much, I know it sounds terrible but I really do care about him, but if I dont have the money I dont have it. But I will defenetly look into it tomorrow and find out what I can do, call the vets, hopefully Ill find a decent vet that will prescribe me the medication without chargeing me a consultation or somthing but where do you get it from, any pharmacy or a special pet pharmacy....

[SpotsMama]

Glad to hear about the toenails.

On shedding scutes, it takes good UVB light and lots of basking plus a good diet to get them to loosen up. Usually it's a very bad idea to pull them off - if you pull them off before they are ready to come off it will damage the shell. However, if a scute is obviously lifting and there's an edge that you can grab ahold of, then you can give it a little help. Just be gentle - if the scute resists being pulled off then leave it alone until it's ready. Your turtle is going to find it harder than normal to shed since the scutes are piled up so thick.

Also, see the list up above about foods with vitamin E that will help a turtle shed. Be patient, this will be a slow process.

On the basking, there are several reasons he may not be basking. The most likely is temperature. Turtles are attracted to heat, so it needs to be noticeably warmer on the basking platform than in the water to motivate him to get up and bask. The water can be 75 or 78 degrees and the basking platform about 90 degrees. If he won't bask at 90 degrees, you can try raising it to 92 - different turtles have different preferences.

On the other hand, if it's too hot on the basking area he won't bask.

You have to measure the water and basking area temperatures with a thermometer - you can't tell just by feel.

Another reason for not basking is that it's too hard for him to climb up on the basking platform. Another reason could be that he's shy. If the tank is quite new to him, he may just still be nervous and getting used to it.

Don't take him out of the tank and put him under a hot light - you need to find a way to motivate him to bask on his own.

I don't think the white is where the bone is showing - I hope not! It's more likely white fungus. My turtle had shell fungus once and it was white. If it's fungus, once the fungus is killed the color should come back. The cream is very good and soothing - it's the same thing that's used on human burn victims, so it won't hurt your turtle in any case.

My vet charged me about $13 for a small container of it. Maybe your vet will let you have some for less if you explain the situation. You're doing a good thing trying to improve the life of those turtles and hopefully the vet will want to help.

[mcghee.kevin]

Well to help him bask I have moved his toy he like to sit on into the basking area. hes all a little skittish and hides alot so Im going to cover the basking area as an incentive to move to it to hide from us humans, im going to grap a thermeter tomorrow to lay on the rocks to get the temp just right. Im going to look for sime sulfa dip and try that to start, then if nothing changes in a week or so Ill try to get a vet or my doctor to prescribe me some of that cream, I figure its best to start at the begining, Ive tried the dr turtle, the dip would be next according to my research and the cream next, I want to get him basking regularly at the very least before going with the cream since you said they need to bask during the day after that treatment. Getting him to eat right now is somthing I want him to do as well he eats so little it scares me. hopefully with basking he will want to eat more

[SpotsMama]

Turtles don't need a whole lot, but if he's eating too little, of course that's not good. Have you read through the nuitrition section on this site? Have you seen the info on enticing a turtle to eat? When a turtle is sick and not eating, sometimes it's ok to offer him things you'd normally only offer as treats, just to get some calories in him. Tuna and shrimp are usually good. Some turtles love a live earthworm. When he's well and ready to eat normally, you have to wean them off the rich food - too much of a good thing is bad.

[marisa]

I'd get some Nolvasan from your vet and start cleaning the areas with that. It looks like the beginning of shell rot to me, especially in the first pics (although the shell looks wet and there's a glare in the photos).

[Bascomb]

S Mama -- Your are good --. I was trying to think of the sulfa cream and I just could not come up with it. ---silver sulfadiazine (SSD) or Sulfadine--- Also the sulfa dip would help too. The cream is better as it keeps out the oxygen and medicates the fungus. I might suggest that you put the cream on and let it sit awhile before getting back into the water. I know it is prescription, however maybe she could check and see if the vet could call it in. These days, you can get just about anything from the Internet. Maybe the cream would not be too hard. I have used lanolin hand cream in the past and it helped my turts. Don't do this unless you check with your vet first. B.

[mcghee.kevin]

i dont know what shell rot looks like, but I was looking at his shell today and it defently looks like abrasion... the areas around the white have lifting edges that would be indicitive to rubbing against somthing.... does shell rot give off the same appearance?

I would sulfa dip him but neither of the pet shops in town have that product, Petland is looking into it but they said they have never carried it.