General Care Discussion :: Small RES... too small for his age?

[kturtle]

I've been searching and reading a lot of previous posts but none exactly match my concern so here I am...

I obtained two hatchlings about 3 years ago, a boy and a girl. The girl has grown at a steady pace and is now over 5 inches. The boy however barely tops 4 inches. His new growth is coming in as very noticeable concentric rings -- I've always read this is a sign of pyramiding but he doesn't get that much protein! Currently it's veggies (leafy greens, maybe some carrot and squash, etc.) and reptile food sticks (4-6 sticks) with calcium and vitamin supplement every other day with the ocassional piece of fish, chicken, or shrimp (these are given very rarely, every few weeks about) and/or a small amount of fruit (cantalope, strawberry, etc).

What in the world am I doing wrong?? I've had turtles a long time, raised essentially in the same manner and they all turned out fine -- smooth shells, average size. He lives by himself (since he doesn't get along with my other turtles) in a 75 gallon tank. He's has a UV light, heat lamp, filter, heater, basking area, calcium blocks and cuttlebone to gnaw on when he pleases -- he always had these things available, ever since he was a baby. He's never had to compete for food and is fed in a separate container.

My little guy seems to have an incredibly slow metabolism and gets a little fat after each feeding time. I've reduced the amount of food (even though it's not that much to begin with!) but nothing works. Please help! I am getting stressed out and desperate and would like to prevent further harm to his health.

You don't think he has metabolic bone disease? What are the symptoms of that? And what exactly are the syptoms of pyramiding? (I'll try to post a picture later.) I read so many things whose information varies so I'm not sure what is what anymore. Also, is it possible that some turtles are just naturally smaller than what is considered average? i.e. I have another girl who is five years old and about five and a half inches -- she's always been a happy and healthy little thing but sometimes I wonder if she's really okay, as I'm always reading that females generally reach up to 9 or 10 inches on average. I just read something about reptiles having a jerky gait when they have metabolic bone disease and well, she doesn't have a jerky gait but she does sometimes seem to trip over her own little legs sometimes when walking around. Maybe they didn't all turn out fine...

All replies welcome and appreciated. Thank you.

[SpotsMama]

The girls get bigger than the boys and they grow faster too, so it doesn't surprise me that your female is bigger than your male. However, the growth rate is slower than most we see on here. If all the elements of their care are up to standard - temperature, UVB light, basking, water quality, and diet - then the next thing to check would be for internal parasites. Parasites are not uncommon in turtles and are a frequent cause of slow or no growth. The five year old turtle that's only five and a half inches seems somewhat small to me. You might get both of the females checked when you get the male checked. A check of stool samples for parasites is pretty routine and shouldn't cost much.

Metabolic bone disease happens when a turtle doesn't get enough calcium in his diet or lacks exposure to UVB light so that the calcium he eats doesn't get metabolized. The bones get soft and deformed and the shell becomes mis-shapen with the edges curling up. Pyramiding is when the centers of the scutes are raised so that the shell appears lumpy. It usually occurs when a turtle is fed too much or is fed too much protein.

What kind of vitamin supplement are you giving? Go easy on the supplements - some vitamins are toxic in large doses.

Here's my standard caution for anyone going to see a vet about a turtle. Some vets give vitamin A shots as a matter of routine. If your vet offers to give a vitamin A shot, first make sure the vet is positive your turtle really needs vitamin A and then discuss other alternatives to shots with the vet like eye drops with vitamin A, cod liver oil or food supplements. Several turtles have recently had very bad reactions to vitamin A shots and I think it's best that if vitamin A is needed (and often it's not) the safer methods be used instead.

It would be helpful to see some photos.

[marisa]

He's healthy? What you're giving him sounds good, although I don't understand your comment about him "getting a little fat after each feeding time" so that you have to reduce an already small amount of food...

It is possible that genetics is playing a role here. I have an eastern painted who was a preemie and at 3 years of age is quite a bit smaller than his siblings. He eats well and is healthy.

Aquatics are clumsy on land. I'd be interested in seeing a picture of the concentric rings you mentioned...

[kturtle]

Thanks for the info/advice!

I use Jurassi-Vite vitamin supplement -- every other feeding, so that's like every four days. Perhaps too often? Sometimes it every six days (as I sometimes forget). This is the only vitamin supplement I found in the stores... kind of like the Jurassi-Cal calcium supplement is the only one stocked...

Can internal parasites be lethal? I need to find a vet... no one close by deals with reptiles. Or will any vet check be willing to check a stool sample?

None of you out there would possibly have a picture of what metabolic bone disease looks like do you? (Re: Curling up of shell)

[kturtle]

Yeah, his shell doesn't look too hot right now since he's shedding scutes... and they're not coming off in whole pieces but bits here and there...

[SpotsMama]

Here's a link to a page with photos of turtles and tortoises with metabolic bone disease, pyramiding and other similar problems. Actually it's kind of hard to look at but it is instructional:

http://www.chelonia.org/Articles/Pyramiding.htm

Your turtle doesn't look anything like the ones in the photos on the link. I don't see any deformity though it's a bit hard to tell because of the angle (straight down, can't see if any of the scutes are elevated in height or if the back has that caved-in look).

Can you post a picture of the shell when it's dry? It's easier to see certain shell problems with a shell is dry. Is that brick your turtle's basking platform? If it is, then he's not able to get dry when he's basking, which is one of the elements essential to good shell health. When he's basking he needs to be able to get completely dry - top and bottom. The basking platform also should not be so abrasive that it scratches the shell. I'd be reluctant to use concrete because it is very hard and could scratch the shell.

[SpotsMama]

On the vitamin supplement, make sure the calcium to phospherous ratio is 2:1 or greater. If the ratio is closer to one, then the phospherous may interfer with cacium metabolism. You could cut back to no more than once a week with it as long as his diet is good.

I think it's possible a vet that doesn't normally treat reptiles could check your turtles' stool. If it turns out there is a parasite problem, then the vet if he's not experienced should be very careful as some common medications for parasites that are safe in other types of animals are toxic to reptiles.

Here's my standard caution to anyone who is going to take their turtle to see a vet: If the vet offers to give a vitamin A shot, first make sure the vet is positive your turtle really needs vitamin A and then discuss other alternatives to shots with the vet like eye drops with vitamin A, cod liver oil or food supplements. Several turtles have recently had very bad reactions to vitamin A shots and I think it's best that if vitamin A is needed (and often it's not) the safer methods be used instead.

[kturtle]

That's just to help him climb up on his basking rock (he has a floating rock but it's not one of the ones with a sloping ledge... I plan to get him a new rock later). He doesn't seem to bask that often. Of course I'm away from home most of the day so I don't really know.

I'll try to get a better pic.

Thanks!

[kturtle]

His shell is not exactly smooth, there's some uneven-ness... probably a deficiency somewhere in his diet I'm afraid... sigh.

[N4784N R4613]

Ouch!! That brick(?) he is resting on, could tare up the bottom of his shell!!

[marisa]

Although his shell is wet, it looks like he needs to do a good shed. All those rings in the last pic are because he's not shedding.

[kturtle]

Ouch!! That brick(?) he is resting on, could tare up the bottom of his shell!!

No problems so far but I have considered the possibility of the abrasiveness damaging his shell... Any ideas what I can substitute? I've thought about stacking some smooth flat rocks... but haven't been able to find any suitable...

[kturtle]

A lot of times I see him with his legs sticking straight out like he's basking, only he's underwater still. Does anyone know why they do this? Water temp is around 76. Could it be that he doesn't like his basking area?

[eugenetimpog]

in my experience some turtle just grow faster than the other. I have 3 RES. I have cared and feed them in equal amounts but they grew on a different pace.

I have a SCL: 4 1/2 inch, 1 year and 2 months old (Samson). (He grew so fast I don't know why)

Tiger, SCL: 3 1/4 inch. 1 year old. got her last November 16, 2007.

Bunsoy, SCL: 3 1/2 inch. got her on January 21, 2007. She out grew Tiger and i think in a few more months she would be bigger than Samson.

They have same diet. same amount of food, and same amount of sunlight. But they grew up at a different pace.

I have also noticed Samsom and Tiger have those rings on their schutes while Bunsoy have a smooth shell.

[SpotsMama]

Some people use a piece of cork bark for a basking platform. Cork bark curves so has a naturally sloping ramp that extends into the water that turtles find easy to climb on. It's cheaper than most man-made basking docks. Here's what it looks like and where you can get some (look towards the bottom of the page):

http://www.blackjungle.com/Merchant2/me ... _Code=WFWH